before jesus offered the ransom, where did people go when they died?.
-sab.
I think Deputy Dog was thinking you meant "Wisdom of Jesus son of Sirach"...
That's Sirach. A different book.
Oh I gave up on Christianity a while back. I'm gonna just sit back and watch the thread now
Well, for a non-Christian, you started a good thread on a Christian subject. Pull up a chair and grab a .
BTS
...according to the wt teachings, that is.. for trinitarians and unitarians alike, the holy spirit is the most powerful force in the universe.. however, if there is the tiniest measly baby demon just fallen asleep in that book you bought at a garage sale, the holy spirit is outa there.
the mere presence of a man-made wooden game board is enough to scare the living crap out of the hs and make your abode a nuclear waste, off limits zone for any kind of good spiritual activity.. why do we have to create the perfect conditions for the hs to operate on us?
shouldnt it be the other way around?.
I am not talking about REJECTION. I am saying that according to JWs, the HS would not go near any bad spirits, whether you realize they are there or not. Humans lack the perceptive powers to recognize that the book they just bought is housing a squatter ghost and the least HS should be able to do is scare the ghost away, not turn around and run for cover...
Ah, I see. My mistake. I do not buy into the JW view.
BTS
before jesus offered the ransom, where did people go when they died?.
-sab.
Do you think your doctrine might be just a tad convoluted? Sheesh.
LOL. Try to keep up.
Removed? When was "Wisdom" canonized?
The early Church used the Septuagint canon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint#Table_of_books
It was considered canonical in the 2nd Century AD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Wisdom
it was either quoted from or alluded to in NT texts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Wisdom#Messianic_interpretation_by_Christians
The final canon was closed at the end of the 4th Century (and includes Wisdom):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Hippo
It was later removed by Luther, and Protestant Bibles have excluded it ever since....unless they have a section called "Apocrypha."
(We don't call them that, we call the Deuterocanonicals)
Fortunately, Luther changed his mind about the Epistle of James. That one nearly didn't make the cut.
BTS
before jesus offered the ransom, where did people go when they died?.
-sab.
John 5:25:
Amen, amen, I say to you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Protestants have removed some books from the Bible. I will quote Wisdom 88:11-13 here:
Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the shades arise and praise you? Selah
Is your love proclaimed in the grave, your fidelity in the tomb?
Are your marvels declared in the darkness, your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?
Wisdom 6:6
For who among the dead remembers you? Who praises you in Sheol? (BTS: If the dead were in heaven, couldn't they praise God?)
BTS
before jesus offered the ransom, where did people go when they died?.
-sab.
BurntheShips: As I am a new Christian, I found your scriptural quotes intersting. Thanks!
It is a pleasure and a blessing sharing Scripture with you brother.
BTS
before jesus offered the ransom, where did people go when they died?.
-sab.
So they went to purgatory, gotchya.
Not necessarily purgatory.
BurntheShips: But while Jesus was on earth he spoke of Abraham being in heaven. Elijah was spoken of as going to heaven. And Enoch never saw death but was transferred to heaven.
As I have said, "for the most part." Elijah and Enoch are two notable exceptions, both were "transferred"...bodily, it seems.
Elijah and Enoch are exceptions.
Luke 16:19-31 speaks of a place called Abraham's Bosom. This is not Heaven, this was the place in Sheol where the souls of the saints rested, awaiting deliverance.
In Gen. 37:35, Jacob implies that he will go to Sheol (not Heaven)
All his sons and daughters came to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. "No," he said, "in mourning will I go down to the grave [ a ] to my son." So his father wept for him.
(the word here for "grave is Sheol)
1 Cor 15:20: But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1 Hebrews 13:20: May the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep by the blood of the eternal covenant, Jesus our Lord,
Matthew 12:40: Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
He was brought up from the dead after 3 days in the heart of the earth. Where was Jesus for the 3 days prior to his resurrection?
Jesus descended to the place of the dead and preached the Gospel to the souls resting in wait for Him:
1 Peter 4:6: For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.
1 Peter 3:18: For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
1 Phil 2:10: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Revelation 1:18: the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever and ever. I hold the keys to death and the netherworld.
Ephesians 4:9: What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended into the lower (regions) of the earth? The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.
BTS
before jesus offered the ransom, where did people go when they died?.
-sab.
Did he extinguish the flames on them before preaching the Gospel, or did he just talk while they burnt?
They were not burning in a literal Hell. Sheol is not Hell. It is a different place.
BTS
before jesus offered the ransom, where did people go when they died?.
-sab.
People went, for the most part, to Sheol, not Heaven. Jesus descended to them when he died, preached the Gospel, and opened the doors of Heaven for their souls to ascend after him.
BTS
http://www.infoamerica.org/documentos_pdf/dawkins10.pdf.
the word delusion in my title has disquieted some psychiatrists who regard it as a technical term, not to be bandied about.
three of them wrote to me to propose a special technical term for religious delusion: relusion.. .
The Irrational Atheist is a good read after you finish Dawkins book, while i don't agree with all the Dox says, he does show by present evidence that not all of what Dawkins ( and Harris and Hitchens) say is based on fact.
Gerard (I think it was) excerpted some Vox Day stuff from that book recently. I haven't read the book, but it seems to be a pretty righteous smackdown on the misinformation these guys have peddled knowingly or not.
BTS
how do you think you would be getting along now?.
why?.
asked in all sincerity.. syl.
Dear Snow, I will go with the obvious application of "oppressed minority."
I am getting along just fine!
However, some groups have been treated worse than others, as you know very well.
BTS
