Posts by OnTheWayOut

212

Why Do You No Longer Believe in God?

by Tenacious in

i know this question has popped up from time to time but i really would like to know how you guys, those that no longer believe, came to that conclusion?

was it the wts and all its crap?

was it something you read?

OnTheWayOut

When I finally googled "Jehovah's Witnesses," I was pretty sure it wasn't "the truth" but I figured from what I had read that Christianity was probably the way to truth. If a person were to follow my path on this forum, they might see that.

But just as I finally learned to question the status quo of Watchtower, I couldn't stop questioning. I questioned the source that Watchtower started with- The Bible. My study found the Bible contradictory to itself and to evidence. Certainly, the people on earth had been here longer than the Bible indicated. Certainly, it wasn't literal. And if it wasn't literal, then there wasn't an original sin in the garden. At the same time I was questioning the Bible, I was examining what science said. The abundance of available evidence of man's evolution and the age of the earth and of the universe itself were fascinating.

All that, and I was only on the fence. I didn't know. But two things did it for me. My personal story leading me to Jehovah was the first one. I thought that God prevented me from committing suicide and led me to JW's. I gave my all to God, made myself fully available to do His will whatever it was. I was fully ready to accept whatever He was and whatever He had in mind for me. So either He let me get sucked up into a lie like the Jehovah's Witnesses instead of leading me to the real "truth" or He wasn't there. The second thing was the 2004 Indonesia tsunami (and later, the 2010 Haiti earthquake could be added in). The God of Christianity or any belief system that I heard about would not let all those children just be swept away from their parents and killed.

Everyone must take their own journey of spiritual awareness and all will want to take an individually tailored path.

35

Did Ray Franz manage to live out a comfortable retirement from the proceeds of his books.

by joe134cd in

i'm just curious if anybody knows.

firstly i don't take issue with the man making money from his books and if he was able to live comfortably from it then i say power to him.

but what i'm wanting to know was just how successful was it and did it allow him to live out the remainder of his years in comfort e.g buy a house, eat good food etc.

OnTheWayOut

I appreciate Blondie's information on this subject. I can appreciate that Ray Franz may have wished he made more money but probably was not upset to know how much people loved what he wrote. Praise for your book and knowing that people are helped by it- that's priceless.

I had hopes of making money as an author (and it's still possible), not so much as a living, but as a supplement to my career. Because of my current JW situation, my book about my experiences has not been promoted at all. I think I have made $500 or so on it just by putting it on Amazon at a very low price. I decided if I couldn't be "out there" with my book, I would rather that it's more affordable and more people read it.

I met someone who said they read my book "first" before the standard books like CoC. I read COMBATTING CULT MIND CONTROL first, and I know what that first book meant to me. I met someone who said they read portions of my book to their JW spouse because the spouse would not read "doctrine" but would listen to a personal story without that. I can say that these people's comments (and a few others) totally humbled me.

I am not pushing my book here. I am just saying I highly believe that Ray Franz got quite a reward for what he wrote. I wish he made more money from it. But that is what that is. I can also say that while I would love to have a million dollars from the writing of my book, I wouldn't have taken a million dollars from Watchtower to not write it.

32

Yearbook - will they drop figures that show a decline?

by freddo in

do you think the yearbooks will stop showing negative information as the numbers stagnate or even drop?

OnTheWayOut

There will be a point when they will stop showing numbers. It's hard to say when that point will be. They may use negatives as a way to say the end is even closer.

28

How Cultish are the JW's?

by xjwsrock in

first off, i certainly agree the jw's are a cult.

but i'm sensitive to black-and-white thinking now.. so, where do they rank on the scale?

think of a cultish religion scale from 0-10.. consider the likes of unitarian universalism vs baptist vs amish vs charles manson.. where do you think jw's fall on the scale?.

OnTheWayOut

Where do they fall on the scale?

That's a tough scale to exhibit. Heaven's Gate and Branch Davidians would be TEN in many books, but their membership was so small in comparison to JW's. JW's have 8 million or so members, but they haven't (yet) told the members to drink the Kool-Aid like they did at Jonestown.

I would have to say that everyone's scale will be different.
Many churches exert little control over the day-to-day lives of members. Cults like the JW's exert high control over that. They encourage shunning and withdrawing from normal "worldly" events and lifestyles. They wreck the future for many young ones, either through crushing their goals or through making them choose normalcy over family.

On my scale, JW's would be an EIGHT out of TEN. That leaves room for the real whacko killers and reincarnated messiahs to the NINE AND TEN portion, but also allows the Universalists and lower control groups below that number. But to be fair, I would put Muslims right up there at EIGHT also.

41

Talking with a young elder

by biblexaminer in

i had a discussion with an elder recently.

it was interesting in a macabre sense.

we were outside the kingdom hall on a nice sunny day recently.

OnTheWayOut

I am sure when this cult gets overturned down the road by one charismatic leader who grabs the power and the allegiance of the members (probably a lot less than the current number), he will use this example.

.....and there were men who were shoving circumcision down the throats of the Gentile converts.

You left a really bad picture in my head with that phrasing.

44

Money woes show it ain't the truth

by OnTheWayOut in

jehovahs people do not beg for money.

[...] we have never considered it proper to solicit money for the lords cause, after the common custom .

it is our judgment that money raised by the various begging devices in the name of our lord is offensive, unacceptable to him, and does not bring his blessing either upon the givers or the work accomplished.

OnTheWayOut

Sorry, took a break.

Vidiot, Calebs Airplane, thanks for stopping in for your laughs.

44

Money woes show it ain't the truth

by OnTheWayOut in

jehovahs people do not beg for money.

[...] we have never considered it proper to solicit money for the lords cause, after the common custom .

it is our judgment that money raised by the various begging devices in the name of our lord is offensive, unacceptable to him, and does not bring his blessing either upon the givers or the work accomplished.

OnTheWayOut

Page 4 replies:

cognac, no- you can't win them all.

mrquik, punk did add a good one. Glad you laughed.

Sabin, I think each town should have a license fee for each cart. But I get your point.

Vidiot, that's a good response. Say it nicely. STFU please.

steve2, bring on the backlash. I wouldn't just charge Jehovah's Witnesses.

35

When did the Great Crowd start forming?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i realize that rutherford received a flash of light regarding the identity of the gc in the year 1935, but that does not tell us when the crowd began to form.

what would be the earliest date?

any ideas or quotes from wt literature?

OnTheWayOut

Just find the exact date that Rutherford declared that there was a great crowd and you will find that they started to form instantly in that same moment.

From http://www.letusreason.org/JW52.htm
At the “1935 convention in Washington, D.C.” the leaders of the Watchtower publicly proclaimed to the Jonadab class they were to inherit an earthly paradise as their eternal reward (Jehovah's Witnesses In The Divine Purpose, p. 140).
The doctrine introduced by Judge Joseph Rutherford, second President of the Watchtower said from 1935 onward, “At the end of May of that year a five-day convention of Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses was in session... the president of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society discussed the subject of 'the great multitude, 'spoken of in Revelation 7.9-17, Authorized Version. He made it clear that the 'multitude' was no spiritual or spirit begotten class, would not attain the angelic nature in heaven so as to assist the 144,000 joint heirs with Christ. It was a distinctly an earthly class with hope of endless perfect human life in the earthly paradise under Christ's kingdom” (Holy Spirit, 1976, p. 156)
Everyone who became a Jehovah’s Witnesses before 1934 would go to Heaven (until Rutherford changed it). God stopped calling people to only a heavenly calling from that year. So he invented two classes, a heavenly class and earthly class. The “great crowd” class introduced by Judge Rutherford out of necessity. An earthly Great Crowd was created, a second- class of people that were subject to and dependent upon the heavenly class who alone would be part of the new covenant.
.........
Rutherford changed the sealing of the 144,000 from the original date of 1881 to 1931. “God having a fixed time for every purpose (Ecclesiastes 3:1), his time to give creatures on earth the opportunity to get in line for a heavenly reward has been from A .D. 29 until, chiefly, 1931, called the “day of salvation. It began with Jesus at Jordan and is now rapidly nearing its end”“ (Let God be True” 1952 2ed. p.298).

44

Money woes show it ain't the truth

by OnTheWayOut in

jehovahs people do not beg for money.

[...] we have never considered it proper to solicit money for the lords cause, after the common custom .

it is our judgment that money raised by the various begging devices in the name of our lord is offensive, unacceptable to him, and does not bring his blessing either upon the givers or the work accomplished.

OnTheWayOut

Page 3 replies:

Vidiot, I always felt that elders and the organization should protect the children or support the innocent victims when an issue like sexual abuse comes up, and that Jehovah would protect the reputation of the organization if there was a pedophile or serial killer among the members. I think I am saying something along the same lines:
If it were truly "God's Earthly Organization" then survival should not be at risk.

cognac, they will indeed argue such a way. They would conjure up images of prostitutes and cigarettes and bling and shiny objects and the "air" of the world in Satan's power. Still, it would seem Jehovah will make sure the magazines are paid for if He wants them out there.

sparrowdown, I think we are used to that. Good things prove they are right. Bad things prove they are right. Everything proves they are right.

44

Money woes show it ain't the truth

by OnTheWayOut in

jehovahs people do not beg for money.

[...] we have never considered it proper to solicit money for the lords cause, after the common custom .

it is our judgment that money raised by the various begging devices in the name of our lord is offensive, unacceptable to him, and does not bring his blessing either upon the givers or the work accomplished.

OnTheWayOut

cognac, cappytan: maybe we will never really know the details on their sales and money deals.

Thanks Punk of Nice.