Posts by OnTheWayOut

31

The GB know it's all lies and wants to dismantle the WTS ... then what?

by Simon in

so imagine the gb have a sudden attack of honesty and realize "crap, this whole thing is lies - we're not god's spokespeople at all !".

how do you dismantle a religion that has +8 million members in a responsible way?

you can't just publish a watchtower saying "we were wrong" because that would be irresponsible - you need to let people down gently, put people off gradually.

OnTheWayOut

The idea is a bit broad. I mean, we would have to know if the entire G.B. was ready to admit it's all crap, and how far they go in this realization- just the cult itself, or maybe they realize that the Bible and Christianity are crap, or that Flying Spaghetti Monster is just as real as the God of men's creation.

But anyway, assuming there wouldn't be a coup (and there would be), I would say that the G.B. would have to lighten up on things quickly. Get that majority vote to stop shunning- have articles about no longer shunning. Immediately lift the blood ban and encourage closeness with non-JW family. Tell members that birthdays are okay, college is good. They could say that Watchtower is no longer going to insist on blind obedience to standards, but that every "Christian" must decide for themselves whether they will celebrate holidays, vote, get a tattoo, join the military, carry a gun, YADDA YADDA YADDA.

If they are sincere and trying to dismantle things but avoid humongous lawsuits, they can say how there is already enough money at HQ and because of the economy, will ask that no more funds be sent to the Worldwide fund. They can say they are going to have one more round of conventions this summer to announce major discoveries and simply tell people on the first day, "GO OUTSIDE, ENJOY THE DAY, STOP BOTHERING PEOPLE WITH WATCHTOWERS, GET OUTTA HERE."

The coups will be big. Maybe they can address that.

31

The Demons were messing with me last night!

by olongapo joe in

jw
friends

so said my pops one morning.

we were visiting my sister in eastern tennessee and the night before after everyone else went to bed pops was watching tv when all of a sudden and completely on it's own the tv changed to the tonight show, holy smokes!!

must be demons cause pops didn't change it!

OnTheWayOut

Televisions respond to electronic signals in the air. Strange things can happen without demons.
You figured out the wind chimes. It's a shame people default to such an extreme explanation.

Watchtower doesn't help. It feeds such feelings.

It's not just demons. We've had people on this forum that allow their own coincidences/problems/beliefs/possible mental illness develop into a whole belief system where God or the angels are talking to them.

Science does understand the causes of hearing voices, vibrations do sometimes cause wind chimes to chime without wind, electronic devices can have glitches for all kinds of reasons, strange coincidences do happen.

38

Who can you trust to admit you have doubts?

by MrMonroe in

(that is, doubts).

in margaret atwood's "the handmaid's tale", a futuristic story of life inside a repressive, abusive big brother-style society tightly controlled by religious fundamentalists, there's a passage in which the protagonist is alone with another woman at a state-controlled centre where prayers are generated -- then printed out and read out -- by a machine.

the other woman asks, in barely more than a whisper, "do you think god listens to these machines?

OnTheWayOut

I felt out the reactions to some questions I had. I did this with my JW wife, mother, best friend, others.

In the end, they all remained loyal to the organization and made it clear that I could not trust them with enough of my discoveries for them to use against me. Well, my wife and my mother slowly morphed into making my differences with the organization my business and simply wanted to avoid being spies for the JW's. Despite that, I only go so far with what I say.

My best friend stopped me from saying anything he could use against me. I suppose that's good. But then he got out of my life. My in-law family treat me fine, but never ask anything JW-related.

It is very hard to know who you can say things to. You want to help them out. In the end, I think leaving, be it fading or otherwise, speaks more to them than anything you might try to convey through logic.

46

Evolution a Fact - Agreed but So What?

by LAWHFol in

in many debates between believers and non believers (nb), the nb uses evolution as some sort of proof to support the non existence of god.. i agree that evolution is a fact, however i feel that evolution is proof of some sort of benevolent original cause.. if i were to create an a.i.

, i would program into it the ability to self-refactor and evolve.. i would also randomly inject viruses into the program (evil) where the a.i.

would be forced to stretch its current capabilities & modify it's operating functions in order to get through the random virus, and continue living.. with a steady flow of different viruses, the a.i.

OnTheWayOut

May be covered already, but evolution tells us that man has been here longer than the Bible states and came to be on the scene without Adam and Eve and original sin. It cuts right across the basic tenants of Christianity.

But it does not disprove a creator other than that.

If someone/something created all this and left it unsupervised, he's a really sick bastard. Try that with your kids and go to prison.

475

What is the alternative to JW?

by Formerbrother in

i mean this with all due respect, i would like to hear from genuine people who think jw have it wrong and then what is the truth?.

im not talking about silly little quibbles here and there.. is jehovah real?

the the bible is word?

OnTheWayOut

If Jws have not got the truth, then -What is the alternative?

You've had great answers here. A life has the purpose you give it. If you want to enrich a publishing company and give false hope to people, that's a pretty poor purpose just so you can die "very happy and contented."

Plus, I deny that most JW's are truly happy. They have this feeling that they are wasting their time, they are made to feel that they never measure up and need to do more. They feel paranoid about accidentally enjoying something "worldly." They miss out on many family joys with their non-JW family.

They indeed miss "the real life." But you don't see that.

Your JW life is alot like living in the Matrix. You can't believe you are living in a made-up fantasy and you cannot see the real world. Wake up, man. You won't wake up because you are afraid you will never get to go back to the Matrix, and the real world with developing your own thoughts/opinions/politics is very scary to you.

Ex-JW's may not know the absolute truth. Neither do you. But I would rather be willing to explore and question than just accept that those guys in NY with a proven track record of delaying and changing the doctrine might actually have anything right.

What other options?

If God and Jesus have a purpose for me, they have my cell number. I don't have to go off and live a life of debauchery, but I can go live my life without a set of imposed rules about blood, beards, birthday cakes, toasting at a celebration, voting, where I should be on Sunday morning and all day Saturday.

17

You don't paint the rooms on the Titanic

by TTWSYF in

this was the line my nephew gave me regarding why jws don't give alms.

i had several rebuttals to give him, but didn't.

i was hoping for some comments from this board.

OnTheWayOut

"Your Jesus fed the poor and cured their illnesses, when he would have known good and well that wasn't any real answer if Watchtower is correct."

66

New Here

by Grey Goose in

jw
friends

hi one and all.. i've lurked for 3 years, about time i signed up.. i'm a still in ms due to family.. fully awake.. i look forward to getting to know all of you..

OnTheWayOut

My guess is in 5 years time. But as I mentioned, with family still in, everything is up in the air right now.

Welcome, welcome. I wanna say- a fade is a progressive action. Mine was pretty fast. Some people are even faster and able to walk away instantly and not be DF'ed. But if those are not the case, I hope you can still make some progress. You already fake some time. It would be great to get that M.S. monkey off your back. Maybe you could become irregular or even inactive and get fired. Maybe you could blow off some CLAM where you have a part and offer the poorest of excuses- "I took a nap after dinner and never woke up for the meeting."

With no wife and no kids, sure you want to keep your family. But is it possible to fade out also? Or to at least work toward being so irregular and undependable as far as meetings go, having no responsibilities but to sit there at half or less than half of the meetings and skip the rest of them? Instead of 5 years, you could be at that point in 1 year.

But if you don't do that, I get it. Good luck to you either way.

114

What is truth?

by Heisenberg in

jw
friends

well, i have been lurking on this site for several months and i recently decided to join as a member.

i have made several observations and would like to make a few comments.. first, i am perplexed by the attitude of many on this site that are either former or active (but apostate) jws.

they seem to have a strong hatred for the wts and also for rank and file jws.

OnTheWayOut

"What is truth?"

Truth can be subjective. "You are a jackass!" is a truthful statement, but loaded with opinion. Others can make a truthful statement that disagrees.
I have seen a green car that was listed as "blue." That is truthful because blue is used with yellow to make up green. But my thought is that such a listing is misleading in order to dump a green car.
My truthful statement is that believers go too far with this and accept that their beliefs which cannot be absolutely proven false are true. But they only accept that this goes as far as "their" beliefs. As an example, Christians typically deny Muslim or Hindu beliefs.

65

How do I handle this situation?

by BarelyThere in

jw
friends

hey everyone.

i'm sorry that this isn't a very thought provoking post but i could really use some advice on how to handle this.

there isn't anyone else in my life i can ask right now because, being dfed, all of my friends are "worldly" and don't know how witnesses function.

OnTheWayOut

What I would do is not get reinstated. I could never sit through all that.

But answering your question, you really cannot use the information at all from FB. You really only have two choices: sit there for months and then request reinstatement or move to another hall now and start fresh there, sitting for months before requesting reinstatement.

I would suggest the move, but if you have already invested months at this one hall, it's a tough call.

Do not move to another hall after requesting reinstatement. Either move beforehand or not at all. It would look like you ran away from the brothers that refused you.

Good luck.

40

How do you feel about the expression "The Truth"?

by stuckinarut2 in

jw
friends

it's amazing how the expression "the truth" has become such an ingrained term used by witnesses.. "we have 'the truth'".

"is he 'in the truth'?".

most here have found out so many facts about the organisation, and felt the effects of being "gut-punched" as we realised these facts.. so how do you feel about the expression "the truth" now?.

OnTheWayOut

I was hoping to find a place to stand on my soapbox today.

Jehovah’s Witnesses use this phrase, “the truth” when talking to each other, from their podiums in their Kingdom Halls, and in front of thousands at their yearly conventions. Members say it and hear it every week. If one is converted, the phrase is repeatedly heard so that it will sink in.

A search of the 2005 Watchtower Library CD-ROM (not going to bother to update my info. but easy to do) shows that the phrase “the truth” appears 18,774 times throughout the literature. Since the phrase is
heard and said so often, the members accept it as a fact. They are confident that the practices and
doctrines of the Watchtower organization are, indeed, the truth. Since it is an established fact in their minds, anything new printed by the Watchtower is accepted as the truth.There is no room for doubt. Jehovah’s Witnesses are even told that there is no room for doubt.

Most members would never dare to question anything they read or hear from Watchtower. The average Witness doesn’t try to think and interpret the scriptures for himself, but relies totally upon the Watchtower organization.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not refer to a truth that is abstract or subject to opinion like a standard of "beauty" or "morality." They insist that the truth does not depend on whose version of facts are used, like whether Pluto is accepted as a dwarf planet, a planet, or a large asteroid. They insist that the truth is absolute and established by God, and can stand up to any scrutiny. The Watchtower claims that our perspective on truth should come from the absolute authority of the creator of all things. They teach that the creator determines what is right and what is wrong, and that the absolute truth we seek is knowledge of His will for His creation.

This is “the truth” that, unlike beauty, does not lie in the eye of the beholder, according to them. But then they just turn the whole thing into a crying shame by saying that we need humans to interpret what that absolute truth is, and to tell us what they think God’s will is for us. And they happily become those humans, and say they are the only humans that can do that.

I cannot prove there is no absolute truth, but I am actually thankful that Watchtower goes to such an extreme in insisting upon it. That is the primary reason I am free of their lies. I did not have to discover the absolute truth or even if one existed. All I had to do was realize that Watchtower didn't have it, and their lies start to crumble. Their literature of the late 20th century insisted that each member examine "the truth" for themselves and I used their own standards to judge their statements and doctrines and they did not hold up. I suspect that's why they no longer insist that each member examine it for themselves. Now, they insist that members just trust them, no matter how bizarre their statements may be.

Thanks for the soapbox. Now, back to my regular internet cruising.