a relative of my wife, just got engaged to a "worldly guy".. the young lady is a baptized publisher, and i am shocked to hear that no one has made a negative comment about her future husband not being an dub.. even her mother who is a pioneer has not made an issue of the engagement.. has things changed?.
are the elders easing up a little on the rank and file?.
They don't mean to be hypocrites, they can't help it. As already mentioned, they will hope to keep their member instead of losing her. They also hope to convert the "worldly" husband.
She might get marked, but most close friends will continue to associate.
there once was a scientist who cynically observed that science seems to progress one funeral at a time, as older men depart (as obstacles).
and new theories are allowed to flourish.
in the case of authoritarian regimes, the demise of the "old guard" can bring about sudden changes.
I actually hope these new men continue along similar lines as the old ones, but you are probably right. If they adapt to changing times, it will give many witnesses the glimmer of hope they need to stay with the Governing Body and the WTS. If they continue to push the same old stuff, the truth on the internet or from ex-JWs will expose them, the doctrines will be examined by good students and they will leave. Many new ones will become inactive and a trend will continue to abandon or at least just stop going so much to meetings.
To hope for the extreme changes that would bring them in line with actual truth, in other words- to make them a valuable organization, would be asking WAY TOO MUCH. Therefore I reject such hope.
last dec 2005, the ny bethel gave talks indicating that they had to downsize (word is mine) due to "improved technology" and that as a result of this simplification some bethel family members would be invited to serve in the united states field in various assignments at various congregations where the excellent training they have recieved at bethel could be put to use and contribute much to the preaching and disciple making work.. what do you make of this?.
i wonder how they would determine who stays or goes?.
are there any former bethel members out there who can comment on rather this would be an easy transistion for those who have to leave?.
I feel for this person being sent "out." Many of us were blind and now we see. Many of us were caring for ourselves, though and can adapt to living without the WTS. The person who gave more than others 1)was encouraged to do so. 2)was praised by his peers. 3)sacrificed so much for his beliefs. 4)lost valuable years for preparing for retirement.
I came into JWs out of the military. I was still young. I was encouraged to look into a more self-sacrificing lifestyle at the beginning, but not pushed too hard because I wasn't raised in the organization. I went to Bethel and visited, and I could not believe that people did this work for virtually no money. It's not the labor, it's the requirements of being at the table on time for meals in clean clothes, being at the weekly Bethel study of the WT, being at the five meetings even though you have to commute far, being out in the ministry if you happen to have any spare time. I actually told people that I "already spent 6 years in the military" when they asked me about possible Bethel/Travelling Overseer goals.
last dec 2005, the ny bethel gave talks indicating that they had to downsize (word is mine) due to "improved technology" and that as a result of this simplification some bethel family members would be invited to serve in the united states field in various assignments at various congregations where the excellent training they have recieved at bethel could be put to use and contribute much to the preaching and disciple making work.. what do you make of this?.
i wonder how they would determine who stays or goes?.
are there any former bethel members out there who can comment on rather this would be an easy transistion for those who have to leave?.
I agree with Jeff. I am not a bethelite, don't know any who have been booted recently, but this has got to be rough on them. Even though their lifestyle is rigid, they get used to it (like a military lifestyle). All of a sudden, the boss says, go out there somewhere, and provide for yourself, somehow. While many will become circuit overseers, and continue to get their needs, others will be special pioneers who are pretty much asking the local cong. for their help, and not covered medically. As bad a deal as these bethelites were promised, they are now getting the rug pulled out from under them. If the organization can say they never "promised" anything, that's just typical. "We never said our prediction of the end in --------- (fill in a year) was in the name of Jehovah." "We never said that WE PERSONALLY would care for bethelites, just that Jehovah would bless them for their service." Would not surprise me a bit if many of these ones left the WTS. (Of course, from what I read, STAYING at Bethel causes people to get disillusioned and leave, too.)
i haven't been to meetings in a long time (trying to fade).
ever so often i do run into a witness or 2 who are friendly, but reserved (after all i am considered in active).
anyway, my hubby & i are currently working on a letter to send to the society that will more then likely get us df'd or disassociated (same thing i guess).
I am going to accept a visit from the CO and DO in about three weeks. That is because I am an active witness, who has just stepped down as an elder, by submitting a letter about my doubts. I am going to keep saying that I have doubts (really I no longer doubt that the GB is wrong) but I will discuss it no further. I feel that this is a necessary step in my fading away gracefully. If I were not an elder or appointed servant, I would suggest that people avoid the CO. I intend to do so on every visit after this initial one. The only way to face them and not get disfellowshipped, is to bite your tongue or lie. I will do some of both. Their own literature teaches us that we are not wrong to withold the truth from those not deserving of it. (They mean intrusive government officials, but it's the same thing) I will smile when these men make a "good point" and they will walk away hoping they did some good. If you cannot do that, then avoid, avoid, avoid.
i haven't been to meetings in a long time (trying to fade).
ever so often i do run into a witness or 2 who are friendly, but reserved (after all i am considered in active).
anyway, my hubby & i are currently working on a letter to send to the society that will more then likely get us df'd or disassociated (same thing i guess).
Sixofnine wrote:
avoid. avoid. avoid.
if that fails, avoid.
This is a must. You cannot do things on your terms, if they find a crack in your armor. They will try to get you to say something to use against you. When you are ready to do things your way, do them. In the meantime, avoid talking at all to these brothers. Say something with the words "emergency" if they pin you down on accident.
i'm not criticizing anyone's decision to da themselves...just wondering what the advantages are.. if the whole da thing is something made up by the gb why make them happy by playing by their rules?
how are they hurt by your decision?
why not just walk away?
Jourles wrote:
people who da'd themselves intentionally turned their back and would never return. They were viewed as the more outcast of the two. They were the ones who you would more likely shun if you ran into them in a social situation. Anyway, that is how I always viewed it.
I have to agree. DF meant you sinned and needed help, or you don't agree with something. DA meant what Jourles wrote. The generic announcements they use emphasize this even more. You either hear "So-and-so has been disfellowshipped" or "So-and-so is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses." So the same stigma holds up. "No longer a JW" sounds worse. They only thing is that JWs are told to treat them all the same- shun them.
a relative of my wife, just got engaged to a "worldly guy".. the young lady is a baptized publisher, and i am shocked to hear that no one has made a negative comment about her future husband not being an dub.. even her mother who is a pioneer has not made an issue of the engagement.. has things changed?.
are the elders easing up a little on the rank and file?.
The statement that her mother will not be allowed to attend (the wedding, reception, shower) or else lose all her privileges, is TRUE. Especially for pioneers, elders, ministerial servants- these rules are often (but not always) enforced by the local congregation. If the mother blesses this union, tell her to send gifts which are not wedding gifts, they just happen to coincide with the timing. If she wants to take her chances and go to the wedding, maybe you can support her decision.
a relative of my wife, just got engaged to a "worldly guy".. the young lady is a baptized publisher, and i am shocked to hear that no one has made a negative comment about her future husband not being an dub.. even her mother who is a pioneer has not made an issue of the engagement.. has things changed?.
are the elders easing up a little on the rank and file?.
The rules have not changed. She can't get judicially reproved for marrying a "worldly guy" because that's going beyond the scriptures. She just made a poor decision, and won't be held up as an example. That means they may never let her pioneer (she's better off) or use her in demonstrations on the platform (better off again). While some may keep their distance from her, others will not. In the past, you may have noticed more drastic measures against such a person by a congregation than there are now. Elders have been told to offer more loving, kind assisstance to such a person now. This is probably because the organization doesn't want to lose a bad witness. Better to make her feel welcome (and then apply guilt pressure to keep her in the congregation) than to drive her out to the World.
i'm not criticizing anyone's decision to da themselves...just wondering what the advantages are.. if the whole da thing is something made up by the gb why make them happy by playing by their rules?
how are they hurt by your decision?
why not just walk away?
While I am avoiding DA to keep contact with JW family, I can tell you how difficult that is. The brothers want to know what's wrong. They want to help you at every wrong step of the way. If your activity slows, why? If you miss meetings, why? If you have doubts, let's keep meeting with you until your doubts go away (You tire of disagreeing with their same-old argument that the GB is imperfect, but accept everything they say until they change it) . It would be fine to just walk away, and refuse to take the calls of the elders and other witnesses. Many do just that, but for some (especially single people or husband-and-wife together), they get more peace when they politely tell the organization to leave them alone.
