Posts by OnTheWayOut

27

How do you anticipate the Watchtower's fall?

by JH in

jw
friends

slowly and progressively, or rapidly after a specific date?.

OnTheWayOut

Money issues. After discontinueing the AWAKE magazine, and going once-monthly with Watchtower (with the OKM on pages 27-30), and only releasing tracts (no books) at the conventions (encouraging the friends to copy them at Kinkos for their preaching placements), it will be announced that all Brooklyn properties have been sold, so HQ is moving to Patterson, NY. Kingdom Halls will get crowded, because most of them are sold off, and the remainder will have to absorb the numbers, thus making it seem like there are still plenty of witnesses. A letter will go out asking for donations to cover a law-suit.

They will start having conventions at the assembly hall, because they are so small. One year, a standard donation will be collected at the door to the convention, so people will hardly show up. The Governing body will then make sweeping changes, but it would really be like trying to bail water out of a sinking ship.

That's my dream.

29

Changes at NY Bethel

by architect in

last dec 2005, the ny bethel gave talks indicating that they had to downsize (word is mine) due to "improved technology" and that as a result of this simplification some bethel family members would be invited to serve in the united states field in various assignments at various congregations where the excellent training they have recieved at bethel could be put to use and contribute much to the preaching and disciple making work.. what do you make of this?.

i wonder how they would determine who stays or goes?.

are there any former bethel members out there who can comment on rather this would be an easy transistion for those who have to leave?.

OnTheWayOut

Stupid question - do you think the Society gave them a little something extra as a "departing" gift? You know - to help them get on their feet again?

To help them get on their feet, they probably gave them one free pair of walking shoes. No, seriously, what did they get? Great question.

24

Is It true what they say about you?

by OUTLAW in

your all apostates!..every last,god forsaken,one of you..you`ve left jehovah..thats why your all,so unhappy!

!...outlaw

OnTheWayOut

Not to take your statement too seriously that we are all unhappy, but recently telling some elders why I have great doubts about the Governing Body and doctrines ( actually, no doubts anymore, but the brothers don't know that ) has caused them all to try to give me extra friendly greetings and the PO always asks how I feel now, because I must be spiritually sick. It's been a few weeks now.

29

Changes at NY Bethel

by architect in

last dec 2005, the ny bethel gave talks indicating that they had to downsize (word is mine) due to "improved technology" and that as a result of this simplification some bethel family members would be invited to serve in the united states field in various assignments at various congregations where the excellent training they have recieved at bethel could be put to use and contribute much to the preaching and disciple making work.. what do you make of this?.

i wonder how they would determine who stays or goes?.

are there any former bethel members out there who can comment on rather this would be an easy transistion for those who have to leave?.

OnTheWayOut

With all the money the society rakes in why do they have to turn these people out. Just more for the GB I guess.

Ditto, Ditto, Ditto, Ditto, Ditto, Ditto, Ditto, Ditto

Rank and File will probably let this go unchallenged, but I hope many Bethelites become "awoke" from their treatment.

47

thirdwitnessCan you Scripturally support JW dogma?

by AuldSoul in

jw
friends

thirdwitness,.

my father, who sat on his first judicial committee when he was 17 and has been and "elder" ever since, couldn't provide scriptures to support some very basic teachings of jehovah's witnesses.

our current circuit overseer could not either.

OnTheWayOut

It would be futile to scripturally support JW dogma on this thread. Can it be done? YES, but it would be done JW style with principle taking the place of logic and proof. (If man has proved something and the NWT doesn't mention it specifically, but generically, then God's Faithful and Discreet Slave can reason from men's research and prove that Jehovah meant a certain thing- ie: smoking is bad for you and pollutes the body, so Jehovah said "don't smoke" where the scriptures say to present your body as a clean sacrifice to him.)

Every one of the doctrines can be supported that way, but only an assimilated JW would accept the argument in 98.7% of the cases. (Okay, I made that percentage up, who knows?)

21

whats it all about?

by andyg in

my mum used to be a jw, she was baptised after about 3 years and carried on for about another 2. she first started taking me to the meetings when i was about 8, and carried on week after week until she was disfellowshipped (she went a bit mad and left home, but that's by the by).

the point is im 21 now and trying to make sense of the stuff i was brought up with for 5 years.

if anyone could shed light on one or two things i'd be most grateful (and some of it i might have wrong anyway).. - before noah's flood, all animals were vegetarian.

OnTheWayOut

- how can the story of job be seen as anything other than morbid?

I may be thinking differently from you, but I studied in the "Live Forever" book, and I had problems with the story of Job. Not so much Job, himself, but his children. God wouldn't let Satan kill Job, but his 10 children were fair game? God blessed Job with new children after he proved faithful. What parent feels that new children makes up for the loss? Well, the first children are eligible for resurrection. (Yeah, but God still approved of Satan's testing method which included killing children.)

With great hindsight, I wish I didn't drop the matter.

are you thinking that maybe an attempt ... to ban religion will result in world war 3?

The teachings are fuzzy on this, but your thinking is along the lines of doctrine. Religion is attacked, destroyed. It probably would be a ban. JWs are taught that it APPEARS that Satan will be successful wiping Witnesses out too, but then Jehovah will intervene and save the faithful.

144,000 will go to heaven. does the HQ keep a list of those claiming?

I missed this one in studying. It is a valid question. The organization only notes how many partakers at the memorial there are each year. That would be the remnant of the 144,000. Also, on a publisher's card (it says how many hours of preaching you do), it notes if you are of the anointed. They totally do not keep track of these people. They tell us that this group, as the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class, have a vast responsibility from God and Christ. The Governing Body represents this group. In my elder's resignation letter, I asked how the Governing Body contacts the group and gets their input before determining doctrine. (I already know the answer from Ray Franz and other former members, but there is no Watchtower explanation in print.)

21

whats it all about?

by andyg in

my mum used to be a jw, she was baptised after about 3 years and carried on for about another 2. she first started taking me to the meetings when i was about 8, and carried on week after week until she was disfellowshipped (she went a bit mad and left home, but that's by the by).

the point is im 21 now and trying to make sense of the stuff i was brought up with for 5 years.

if anyone could shed light on one or two things i'd be most grateful (and some of it i might have wrong anyway).. - before noah's flood, all animals were vegetarian.

OnTheWayOut

but to exclude those from other religions is silly.

JW doctrine doesn't specifically exclude people who are not JW, but it is a word-game. At Armageddon, yes, they say you have been preached to and must have accepted the truth that God made sure you were able to understand. But prior to Armageddon (even near the last minute), the teaching is that anyone can be resurrected unless he has been judged already to be a blasphemer against God's Holy Spirit (IOW: he has already rejected Jehovah, Christ, Holy Spirit). They also teach that Noah's Flood victims have already been judged, the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah have already been judged- no resurrection. I now feel that this doctrine is to get JWs to believe that their non-JW relatives have a chance at resurrection, so keep the faith.

I was a WT parrot on this one: In the 1980s they said- In all of history, perhaps 15 Billion people have lived and died already. I forget the exact details, but it added up to between one(1) and one-half(1/2) acre of land per person in Paradise. The land would be blessed by Jehovah and very productive, so there would really be no problem with food. [What I leave out is animal life- very difficult to fit into the equation if they aren't killing each other, and continue multiplying] [Also, so many people have lived in the 20th century and died, that the numbers can't hold up.]

21

whats it all about?

by andyg in

my mum used to be a jw, she was baptised after about 3 years and carried on for about another 2. she first started taking me to the meetings when i was about 8, and carried on week after week until she was disfellowshipped (she went a bit mad and left home, but that's by the by).

the point is im 21 now and trying to make sense of the stuff i was brought up with for 5 years.

if anyone could shed light on one or two things i'd be most grateful (and some of it i might have wrong anyway).. - before noah's flood, all animals were vegetarian.

OnTheWayOut

- before noah's flood, all animals were vegetarian.

People were vegetarians. I don't remember ever discussing the animals that way. I remember that they would be vegetarian in paradise according to prophecy in Isaiah. I suppose, if they were going to be that way, the teaching must have been that it was the "original purpose."

also, that JWs believe Christ was crucified with his arms upward rather than outstretched. what evidence is there for this and why does it matter? the cross symbol could still be valid, as i suppose a name plaque would have been nailed above him.

It should not be a big issue, but JWs strive to be controversial on many subjects, such as this one. They say it is a pagan symbol that existed before Christ. As far as the stake/cross issue, their stance is very weak. I think it's just another "See, we are different ploy." They say the Latin word in the Bible meant tree or stake (It can, but doesn't rule out cross) but they neglect to tell us that often the stake was permanently fixed with the crosspiece carried to the execution. (Jesus bearing his cross).

if God, in his infinite wisdom, created mankind to be perfect, why did they prove imperfect? it seems to me we cannot be punished for what is, fundamentally, an oversight on His part.

They say Adam and Eve had free will. They say they chose to want to "be like God, and choose for themselves what is good and bad." You bring up a great point. If Eve were perfect, she would use 100% of her perfect brain. She would know God was able to punish her and that some fruit off a tree would not make her "like God." They say, Satan went to the naive woman, but you are right, makes no sense.

- after armageddon, only the faithful and the 'sheeplike ones' will be ressurected to inherit the new order. practically speaking, the process will have to be VERY selective, taking into account all past generations. or do you think that maybe a literal 'new world' will be created?

They say that the total number of people who have ever lived is not so great as to exclude them from all fitting on the earth. Remember that all but the faithful will be wiped out today. Tha eliminates over 6 Billion people from the get-go. They also say, we've only been alive 6000 yrs.

- what if these 'sheeplike ones' belong to another religion? do these good-natured people need to be free from any other religious orientation to survive armageddon?

Last one from me for now. Yes, they have to completely separate from Babylon the Great to escape her wrath because of her bloodguilt. Many are pointing out the hypocrisy of their stance, by discussing the WTS bloodguilt.

10

The Bethel downsizing letter

by OnTheWayOut in

i was at the kh and the official discussion of the letter on the cover of the sept. kingdom ministry took place.

the instructions were to include a discussion of how the need for workers in the field was great.. basically, the letter says that due to technology, less bethelites are needed, so many are being sent out into the field, with many congregations in the united states receiving the benefits of these "mature" publishers.

yes, they actually said they were sending older ones packing from bethel.

OnTheWayOut

How are we to be sure that "mature" refers only to older ones?
Perhaps others who's skills are no longer needed could be put out to pasture.
Consider this: This could also be an attempt to put more people in "weaker" congreations and/or to spread Brooklyn's eyes and ears around a little more

All true, all true. The word "mature" did not exclude younger mature people. I don't want to mislead anyone, here. My point is that it was a major announcement, and they did include older people in the pink slips, perhaps (but perhaps not) a majority were older.

Certainly, there will be some of that other point, spreading the "Big Brother's eyes and ears" stuff. (Maybe I will call it Big Mother.) But, unless these ones are still cared for financially by Bethel (some have probably been made travelling overseers and still get cared for), I don't see them reporting back their shocking findings. (Or perhaps Bethelites were more assimilated than I was, and they will do whatever Big Mother says).

29

Changes at NY Bethel

by architect in

last dec 2005, the ny bethel gave talks indicating that they had to downsize (word is mine) due to "improved technology" and that as a result of this simplification some bethel family members would be invited to serve in the united states field in various assignments at various congregations where the excellent training they have recieved at bethel could be put to use and contribute much to the preaching and disciple making work.. what do you make of this?.

i wonder how they would determine who stays or goes?.

are there any former bethel members out there who can comment on rather this would be an easy transistion for those who have to leave?.

OnTheWayOut

It is a bit like a prisoner leaving prison after several decades of incaceration.

The Shawshank Redemption. The first guy killed himself on the outside. The next guy escaped, but blew the whistle on the warden, and he helped the last guy escape his own suicide on the outside. This is a very good analogy of the situation.