Posts by OnTheWayOut

32

Suffering and existence of God

by elbib in

many people find it difficult to reconcile suffering and existence of god.

it seems they feel that it is god’s obligation to shield humans from ill-effects of their short-sighted acts..

people’s hobby has something to do with this kind of reasoning!

OnTheWayOut

It seems they feel that it is God’s obligation to shield humans from ill-effects of their short-sighted acts.

On the subject of natural disaster:

Not to start a flame that leads to a forest fire, but I have heard people say that it is the parents' short-sightedness that causes them to continue living in a tsunami-prone or earthquake-prone area, so why would God do anything to save their children?

To this type of thinking, I say that every place on earth is subject to some kind of disaster. And not all people can simply pick up and move away from "the coast" or the "the open plains" or "the mountain area." If people die in a blizzard, flood, tornado, tsunami, earthquake, mudslide, avalanche, lightning storm, yadda yadda, there can be pause to wonder what God had to do with it. Firm believers are confident that God had absolutely nothing to do with it, and that's fine. But when perhaps greater than 100,000 children are swept away in a tsunami, the simple question arises: If I had the power to prevent that, wouldn't I?

Should I just say that humans have short-sight by daring to live where it is possible for such tragedy to happen? Where should they live?

I could ponder that same inaction by God concerning children born with birth defects that cause great suffering. How dare those parents have children.

28

I cringe when I think about the talks I gave.

by James Mixon in

you brothers who gave talks do you thinks about the crap you spoke from the platform.. thirty years old, no knowledge what so ever of the world we live in, barely making the grade.

to graduate from high school, a year and half in jc college and now with schooling of jw higher.

education i thought i was a hell of a speaker.

OnTheWayOut

I must say I am right at home with this thread.
I developed 45-minute talks following the outlines tightly, but having done research on the individual points found within the outline or (more commonly) the Watchtower references until I was convinced that this is such obvious logic. As I look back, I used logic flaws like a madman.

17

Don't Want To Be At The RC This Year...

by JW_Rogue in

the whole time i'll just be thinking about what effect all those crazy loyalty videos will have on my family.

i can venture to guess that they'll be wound up and determined to "stay loyal" because this "is the truth" and "this system can't last much longer".

i have to go because not doing so would raise too much suspicion but i'm really dreading it.

OnTheWayOut

Even though I wasn't awake at the time, I very much appreciated assignments like "attendant." You had a reason to get up at various times and you could milk that time into a longer time.

29

Where did Jehovah go ?

by Deleteandrestart in

for the many years i was mentally " in " the congregation, i equated the organisation as interchangeable with the persona of jehovah, in effect whatever the organisation said or thought, that was what jehovah thought and that was what jehovah said.... it was that simple.

so when i found out the ttatt and the cynical moves of the organisation over the years,including 1975 , the donation arrangements, the united nations, etc i was devastated and thought " where's jehovah in all of this?".

the god who i'd poured my heart out to on many occasions and who i thought was silently listening and hearing my pleas ..... was not there , .

OnTheWayOut

I was at this point over a decade ago:

If "the truth" was a lie, then all the beliefs that I had developed would need to be thrown away. It would mean that God didn't intervene in my life and give me a higher purpose. I wasn't serving Him by peddling WATCH TOWER magazines. I only saw two options: blame God for taking me at my most vulnerable moment and leading me into the Watch Tower organization, or remove God from the field and take blame for myself for being duped into the religion. I needed Him as my scapegoat.

But as time went on, I discovered so much more. Millions of people are duped. I don't need to wallow in self-blame. I made what seemed like an important life choice, a valid one at the time, and I was wrong because I was misled by a dangerous mind-control cult. My bitterness with God died and I remained bitter with the organization known as Watchtower. It does no good to self-blame. That's something that many abuse victims go through also, and it just isn't reality to self-blame.

I tend to agree with you that there is no Jehovah in all that, and my atheism is from a serious look at the evidence. But even without such solid evidence for a lack of God in things, I wouldn't serve God through religion now unless He personally proved himself to me.

I have taken years to find peace, to find a balance because i still have a wife in the JW's. It's a tough road, but there was never any possibility of turning back or remaining the the congregation as a silent nonbeliever.

14

Excuses for God

by xelder in

i am amazed at how people will go to extreme stretches of logic to explain or justify the supposed actions of their god (lower case g intentional, no upper case deserved).

i have seen people with wonderful bullshit detectors in normal life, throw all of that ability away in order to retain their hope of a creator who cares for them.

i am agnostic, certainly not atheistic, since i think atheism is not provable.

OnTheWayOut

Recently, Christendom theologians have come out with their "best" explanation of suffering—Suffering exists because ‘God too wants to experience suffering through the suffering of humans, or when we go through suffering, Jesus and His Father are completing their suffering through us.’

Is so, then "God" is the biggest psychopath ever.

I see that belief was created by primitive men to answer the big question, "Why?" We could have outgrown it by now, but men took advantage of belief and created religion. Religion was invented to make people feel guilty about things they did or said or thought, then sell them a way to appease that guilt.

I won't argue your agnosticism vs. my atheism. It's a matter of semantics. Atheism, to me, is the broadest sense of the word- the absence of belief in the existence of deities. In my case, I can say with confidence that none of the deities that man has created are real. To me, saying that such a position lacks "proof" is like saying there is a lack of proof that Santa Claus doesn't exist. We can follow the history of the creation of Santa Claus or "Jehovah" in one part of our brain, and then accept their existence in another part of our brain. This is the stuff of the novel, "1984."

I find most true agnostics are [agnostic atheists]. Wiki: "Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact." So, as a matter of semantics, people will drop either half of that title, drop a portion of that definition, or add their own specifics to the definition. I find that most who accept the title of "agnostic" or "atheist" both think they have thought it out beyond the people who cling to the "other" title.

I see that ideas about god have evolved to the idea that a god should be perfect, all-knowing, all-wise, and typically all-good. I definitely don't think that the writer of Genesis thought that. Most gods were created as just all-powerful and maybe all-knowing, but with character flaws. Even the god that Jews created was angry and jealous. But as man became more sophisticated in philosophy, his gods had to be elevated to fit his philosophies.

33

YOUNG PEOPLE ASK Should I Grow a Beard?

by neat blue dog in

ok, ok, so the actual title of the article released today on jw-org is "young people askshould i get a tattoo?

", but i thought i'd replace some words and phrases from the actual article, as follows:"regardless of the motive, you should think long and hard before deciding to have anything growing out of .

your skin!

OnTheWayOut

I'm still thinking about that elephant tattoo. Should I get an elephant with a beard?

15

What would happen if...

by StarTrekAngel in

in an effort to excuse yourself from elder persecution, you present an argument.

whether at a jc or just in an average elder shepherding call.

most people who have confronted a jc, have tried to explain to the elders about what they know of the org but the incriminating questions always come up.. when confronted with the question, do you still believe the gb is the f&ds?

OnTheWayOut

do you still believe the GB is the F&DS ?

I'm not here to be interrogated.

Just answer the question.

I am so offended that you have to ask it. I am not going to give an answer.

I will take your answer as a NO.

I can't help the way you take my answer, even if you are wrong.

Am I wrong?

[Silence]

13

Just stopped by to say hello

by stillajwexelder in

jw
friends

must be two years since i was on the board.

hope all are well.

i still go to the odd meeting.

OnTheWayOut

I have this bad habit of comparing myself to others.
I am still active on this forum, but I focus on how you are still going to meetings and turning in "time."

It makes me feel not so bad about my continued activity here. So sorry to read how you still have some part in "the lie" that is "the truth." But I wish you well.

14

Life After Disassociation (or really leaving by any means)

by dubstepped in

i just wanted to take a minute to encourage any that are leaving that the world outside isn't as scary as it was made out to be.

my wife and i officially da'd at the beginning of last september.

i've battled social anxiety, depression, etc.

OnTheWayOut

Be open and honest with people in your life outside of the organization. Tell them what you're going through, what you're going toward, and be vulnerable. We were completely open with the people we clean houses for and they've been our biggest allies through all of this. They are our new friends and family, and we've branched out from there. Find those lost Witnesses that disappeared years ago and reach out to them. We've been reacquainted with several people that left years ago and made friends there again. People are generally good, and if you're leaving something like a cult then you have one of the more interesting stories that anyone could share. People love hearing about it and find it interesting, and they will become your cheerleaders as you escape something that is so destructive. They want to see you succeed. Open vulnerability begets open vulnerability. We've learned more about others around us as we've been open, and it builds real relationships, not surface level ones like the JWs.

I just saw this thread as it was linked from another.

This is awesome advice. I was totally open with my coworkers, something rare among macho firefighters. It was great, not a bad reaction among the bunch to what I was going through. That doesn't mean it would always be that way, but the good should outweigh the bad if you experience any negatives.

I gather with ex-JW's all the time and we support each other. That's awesome too.

63

New Spiritually Weak Label: Not Using Tablet/iPhone

by Doubtfully Yours in

with last night's meeting it became official: here in the states is a must to keep up with 'jehovah's org' that one fully jumps on board with this tablet/iphone crap.. so, now, all of us that up to this point have refused to follow the wtbts in their electronic/wireless revolution will deal with the browbeating from the 'spiritual' ones.. already receiving lots of grief from hubby and rest of the family/close friends when seen at the meetings with paper publications.

damn it!!!

am i alone in this resistance???!!!.

OnTheWayOut

I remember when it was the opposite. Having printouts of scriptures or WT iterature references was bad. I did it anyway and didn't say anything. I did it as the School Overseer, as it made my job easier.

I remember my wife typing out the interpretation from foreign language to English to help a "student" and some elder's wife complaining about the noise of her "banging" keys on a laptop. "You have to be sitting right in front of her to even hear it." The sister said she was right in front of her. "Well, MOVE! She's providing something valuable for someone trying to learn." Oh, the grief I received for not backing down. The elderette got her husband and I said, "If you are unable to move your wife to another seat, YOU GO TELL Mrs. OTWO she needs to stop."

So now it's flipped. Like most things JW. The internet was bad until it was inevitable, and even then it was resisted until printing was becoming expensive. Technology is only good if Watchtower says so. Nothing new under the sun.