Posts by Mondo1

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

BelieverInJesus,

We are not explicitly told, but most likely it was Wisdom (Prov. 8:30), who is the Logos. (Joh. 1:1-4)

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

BelieverInJesus,

That is pretty funny. Let us see what another says on it, shall we?

A.T. Robertson: "At this point the Latin Vulgate gives the words in the Textus Receptus, found in no Greek MS. save two late cursives (162 in the Vatican Library of the fifteenth century, 34 of the sixteenth century in Trinity College, Dublin). Jerome did not have it. Cyprian applies the language of the Trinity and Priscillian has it. Erasmus did not have it in his first edition, but rashly offered to insert it if a single Greek MS. had it and 34 was produced with the insertion, as if made to order."

Now, you say you trust the NAS and NIV. Look at them then! They don't include it!

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

ellderwho,

You quote Phil. 2:6 as follows:

Phi 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

This is a good translation, but it says exactly the opposite of what you want. He existed EN MORFH TOU QEOU, but what did he not do? He did not attempt to hARPAGMOS (grasp for, violently attempt to sieze or rape) equality with God. You cannot do this to something you already have.

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

BelieverInJesus,

I thought you knew a little Greek? How could you quote such a gross mistranslation of Phil. 2:6???

You quoted it as saying: "Though he was God." The text does not say that at all. That is shocking and rather sickening it is so poorly translated.

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

BelieverInJesus,

You state: "For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE." (I John 5:7)

Reply: That is a known spurious text, not found in any Greek manuscript prior to the 15th century. Using texts that are *added* to the Bible does not help your case.

You state: In Genesis 1:26 God said, "Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness

Reply: Has nothing to do with God being Triune.

You state: Mondo1...I appreciate your acceptance that Jesus is not Michael. It's a real shame when JW's beleive everything, I mean everything that the cult leaders tell them. They don't even think things through logically in their head, they just allow the brainwashing to occur. Then go door to door, knocking on peoples doors, telling them "Jesus is Michael, he's not God!" Which is blasphemous.

Reply: Actually there are many Trinitarians who believe that Jesus is both Michael and God. The Bible is clear though in that Jesus isn't God, but God's son.

You state: John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

Reply: 1 Corinthians 3 tells us that "he that plants [Paul] and he that waters [Apollos] are one." What of it?

You state: Exodus 3:14 God tells moses "tell themI AM sent you."

Reply: First, the verb EHYEH is better translated "I will be," which is the same word that is just about always translated that way in Exodus 3:12. Second, Jesus never used the words in that sense.

You state: John 18:5 When they were looking for Jesus, Jesus said to them "I AM HE." then they drew back and fell to the ground!

Reply: Let us look at that in context. Verse 4 tells us that Jesus asks whom they are looking for. Verse 5 presents them responding, stating "Jesus the Nazarene." Just then says, "I am he." Or, "I am that one." Who? Jesus the Nazarene. He only told him that he was the one they were looking for. This is normal grammar here. Nothing special about Jesus words. Look at John 9:9 to see what I mean.

You state: I believe whether you are a trinitarian, quaditarian, quintatarian or whatever, it really doesn't matter when compared to "Who is Jesus to you?" If he is God, then your saved from what Roman's 10:9 says.

Incorrect. Romans 10:9 says you will be saved if you believe he is Lord. Says nothing about "God." I suggest you consider Acts 2:36, which states that "God made him Lord..."

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

ellderwho,

Let us look at what you had to say. You write:
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Joh 17:5 So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.(nwt)

Looks like Christ is alongside the father with some of the Fathers glory.
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Careful in your exegesis there my friend. It says nothing of him having "some of the Fathers glory." It speaks of Jesus having glory "alongside" the Father. The Greek word is PARA, which here simply means "with." For example, if you look up into the sky at night you see the stars, and the glory of the stars. From man's perspective on the earth, we look up and see them "with" eachother. They each have glory with eachother, but there is no thought of them sharing eachothers glory. It is a glory unique to each one.

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I have not removed anything entirely from context. When Paul quotes the OT is he out of context because the point being made does not use the storyline or example from which it is quoted from?
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Yes you did remove it from context, because you attempted to apply the text in a way that had nothing to do with what was being discussed in context. Paul also quoted texts out of context too, because the language applied properly to the situation. But there is a difference. When Paul quoted out of context, he was merely borrowing the language, he was not attempting to make a point that was untrue outside of the original context.

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Abuse? Your argument is with scripture not me.
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If that is the case, why did you not address my point. Here it is again for you. I said: "I would suggest you read the book of Judges, where a number of "saviors" are refered to, and properly called such. For example, Ehud was "a savior.""

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Jud 1:25 to [the] only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, might and authority for all past eternity and now and into all eternity. Amen.
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I am starting to see is a trend amoung Trinitarians in a blatent abuse of this text. The problem for the Trinitarian is that this is a doxology, not expressing events that have already transpired, but the author's own desire. The past reference, literally translates to "before the age," only places emphasis on Jude's desire for these things to be attributed to God and has nothing to do with Christ being eternal himself.

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

By_Blood_Immortal,

You write: Yes I do mean that Jesus was "God" as in Jehovah. A well formed point, but if this were the case, the word "God" would be lower case, which it clearly is not.

Response: Incorrect. The Greek text makes no distinction, neither does the Hebrew. For example, in Psa. 45:6 we read of the Jewish King, who is the subject of that chapter, and he is called "God" and yet it is generally translated as "God."

You write: I do believe that the prophet Elisha resurrected a boy from the dead, should we commit our spirits to him? He was obviously given the authority to resurrect the dead.

Response: This was not a true resurrection as in what will happen in the last days, when Christians are raised to immortality. This was simply a temporary restoration of life. Elisha has no authority over that, Jesus does, so this is a case of apples and oranges.

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

By_Blood_Immortal,

You write:
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Third, Jesus was God.John 20: 28- In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” <You mean he was decieved? Wasn't he one of the closest to Jesus?I'm relatively sure ALL of the disciples felt this way seeing as how Thomas was the only one that doubted, yet he ended up believing anyway.
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Does this mean that Jesus was "God" as in Jehovah? God is often used in a personal way, as a quazi proper name. Here it is not used that way, but rather it refers to a position that Jesus held over Thomas. Jesus was "god" to Thomas, but this does not make him God as in the Almighty. There is a necessary distinction that must be draw, for the word QEOS (god) carries with it different senses.

----------------------------- Acts 7: 59- And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” <Since when have complete humans been able to recieve spirits?
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Since Jesus was given the authority to resurrect the dead. The spirit is the life force, for force that animates the body. For Jesus to resurrect one it is necessary for him to return that life force to the person, and so Stephen trusts him with it.

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

Frank,

You write:
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Your explanation, as I see it, takes away from the glory and meaningfulness of Jesus' earthly ministry. Either God spoke through his Son "in times past" or he didn't. Hebrews 1 shows there is a vast difference in the way God spoke to mankind before and after Jesus arrived.
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God spoke through various ones in times past, and I mentioned 1 Corinthians 10, which seems to point to at least one time when it was the Son. It doesn't take away from anything at all. You give no reason why it takes away from it. You only claim it. Again, what I am discussing is the *means* by which God spoke by the prophets, and the means was various agents, likely including his son.

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Perhaps you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Perhaps not. I don't know. They believe Jesus was the archangel Michael and God's spokeperson to mankind. But Hebrews 1:5 denies that with the question "For to which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my son, today I have begotten you.'"? Jesus was not the archangel.
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I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses but I do not believe Jesus is Michael, but that text does nothing to deny it. That text has written with regard to the man Jesus, and it has nothing to do with how he existed prior to becoming a man.

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Additionally, what would be the point of Hebrews 2:2, 3, where we're told that the OT messages were spoken through angels and the Christian gospel was presented to us by God's Son and those who knew him personally? If God's Son spoke "in times past," why is there no mention of this? The writer asks, "For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard."
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Because when God sends forth an agent, it is counted as God himself. I strongly suggest you research and come to understand Jewish agency.

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

Jeff S,

What you describe does nothing more than show Jewish agency. Trinitarian desperation has brought some of them to the speculation that you mention, but it is pure speculation. Simple agency shows us what is going on. Hence, when "God" wrestled with Jacob, the Targum Pseudo-Jonathan explains it was Michael. Michael was appearing as God's agent, and so *legally* it was as though God himself wrestled Jacob, and hence the text says that. This is a known concept that can be seen in numerous passages. This is especially clear in that the law was delivered by angels (plural) according to ones within the New Testament, and because there are texts that are shown from the Old Testament to be the Father specifically, and yet we know that nobody has seen the Father. What has happened is various ones have appeared as the Father's agent.

Mondo