Posts by Mondo1

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

A number of lines of evidence. First, the allusions to both Proverbs 8 and Jewish Wisdom literature within quotes of the New Testament that relate to Jesus. This in itself does not prove anything, but we must consider all of the evidence. Second, the fact that Jesus is both directly and indirectly called Wisdom. Third, there can be only one first created, because first is first and first of creation is the first of creation, and Wisdom is it and so is Jesus. (Prov. 8:22; Rev. 3:14) Of course if you'd like to dispute the translation and meaning of those two texts, I'm certainly more than willing to do so... but really, the primary line of evidence is simply the fact that Jesus is called "Wisdom" directly, both by Paul and by Jesus himself, speaking in the third person.

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

LittleToe,

Are you refering to Genesis 1:26? If so, I would say as there is no record of anybody ever saying anything *to* the Spirit in Scripture, this is pretty unlikely.

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

BelieverInJesus,

Let us apply your logic elsewhere.

Cats are called pets
Dogs are called pets

It doesn't work. Jesus is called King of Kings, but God himself called Nebuchadnezzar King of kings. So is Nebuchadnezzar Jesus? No!

The fact is actually that Revelation 22:12-13 is the Father, which I will be happy to demonstrate if you like. Jesus begins speaking in verse 16.

As for my education, which areas of my education? I am self taught in much, but formally taught in some.

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

BelieverInJesus,

We are not explicitly told, but most likely it was Wisdom (Prov. 8:30), who is the Logos. (Joh. 1:1-4)

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

BelieverInJesus,

That is pretty funny. Let us see what another says on it, shall we?

A.T. Robertson: "At this point the Latin Vulgate gives the words in the Textus Receptus, found in no Greek MS. save two late cursives (162 in the Vatican Library of the fifteenth century, 34 of the sixteenth century in Trinity College, Dublin). Jerome did not have it. Cyprian applies the language of the Trinity and Priscillian has it. Erasmus did not have it in his first edition, but rashly offered to insert it if a single Greek MS. had it and 34 was produced with the insertion, as if made to order."

Now, you say you trust the NAS and NIV. Look at them then! They don't include it!

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

ellderwho,

You quote Phil. 2:6 as follows:

Phi 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

This is a good translation, but it says exactly the opposite of what you want. He existed EN MORFH TOU QEOU, but what did he not do? He did not attempt to hARPAGMOS (grasp for, violently attempt to sieze or rape) equality with God. You cannot do this to something you already have.

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

BelieverInJesus,

I thought you knew a little Greek? How could you quote such a gross mistranslation of Phil. 2:6???

You quoted it as saying: "Though he was God." The text does not say that at all. That is shocking and rather sickening it is so poorly translated.

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

BelieverInJesus,

You state: "For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE." (I John 5:7)

Reply: That is a known spurious text, not found in any Greek manuscript prior to the 15th century. Using texts that are *added* to the Bible does not help your case.

You state: In Genesis 1:26 God said, "Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness

Reply: Has nothing to do with God being Triune.

You state: Mondo1...I appreciate your acceptance that Jesus is not Michael. It's a real shame when JW's beleive everything, I mean everything that the cult leaders tell them. They don't even think things through logically in their head, they just allow the brainwashing to occur. Then go door to door, knocking on peoples doors, telling them "Jesus is Michael, he's not God!" Which is blasphemous.

Reply: Actually there are many Trinitarians who believe that Jesus is both Michael and God. The Bible is clear though in that Jesus isn't God, but God's son.

You state: John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

Reply: 1 Corinthians 3 tells us that "he that plants [Paul] and he that waters [Apollos] are one." What of it?

You state: Exodus 3:14 God tells moses "tell themI AM sent you."

Reply: First, the verb EHYEH is better translated "I will be," which is the same word that is just about always translated that way in Exodus 3:12. Second, Jesus never used the words in that sense.

You state: John 18:5 When they were looking for Jesus, Jesus said to them "I AM HE." then they drew back and fell to the ground!

Reply: Let us look at that in context. Verse 4 tells us that Jesus asks whom they are looking for. Verse 5 presents them responding, stating "Jesus the Nazarene." Just then says, "I am he." Or, "I am that one." Who? Jesus the Nazarene. He only told him that he was the one they were looking for. This is normal grammar here. Nothing special about Jesus words. Look at John 9:9 to see what I mean.

You state: I believe whether you are a trinitarian, quaditarian, quintatarian or whatever, it really doesn't matter when compared to "Who is Jesus to you?" If he is God, then your saved from what Roman's 10:9 says.

Incorrect. Romans 10:9 says you will be saved if you believe he is Lord. Says nothing about "God." I suggest you consider Acts 2:36, which states that "God made him Lord..."

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

ellderwho,

Let us look at what you had to say. You write:
-------------------------
Joh 17:5 So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.(nwt)

Looks like Christ is alongside the father with some of the Fathers glory.
------------------

Careful in your exegesis there my friend. It says nothing of him having "some of the Fathers glory." It speaks of Jesus having glory "alongside" the Father. The Greek word is PARA, which here simply means "with." For example, if you look up into the sky at night you see the stars, and the glory of the stars. From man's perspective on the earth, we look up and see them "with" eachother. They each have glory with eachother, but there is no thought of them sharing eachothers glory. It is a glory unique to each one.

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I have not removed anything entirely from context. When Paul quotes the OT is he out of context because the point being made does not use the storyline or example from which it is quoted from?
-------------------------

Yes you did remove it from context, because you attempted to apply the text in a way that had nothing to do with what was being discussed in context. Paul also quoted texts out of context too, because the language applied properly to the situation. But there is a difference. When Paul quoted out of context, he was merely borrowing the language, he was not attempting to make a point that was untrue outside of the original context.

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Abuse? Your argument is with scripture not me.
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If that is the case, why did you not address my point. Here it is again for you. I said: "I would suggest you read the book of Judges, where a number of "saviors" are refered to, and properly called such. For example, Ehud was "a savior.""

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Jud 1:25 to [the] only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, might and authority for all past eternity and now and into all eternity. Amen.
---------------------------

I am starting to see is a trend amoung Trinitarians in a blatent abuse of this text. The problem for the Trinitarian is that this is a doxology, not expressing events that have already transpired, but the author's own desire. The past reference, literally translates to "before the age," only places emphasis on Jude's desire for these things to be attributed to God and has nothing to do with Christ being eternal himself.

Mondo

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

By_Blood_Immortal,

You write: Yes I do mean that Jesus was "God" as in Jehovah. A well formed point, but if this were the case, the word "God" would be lower case, which it clearly is not.

Response: Incorrect. The Greek text makes no distinction, neither does the Hebrew. For example, in Psa. 45:6 we read of the Jewish King, who is the subject of that chapter, and he is called "God" and yet it is generally translated as "God."

You write: I do believe that the prophet Elisha resurrected a boy from the dead, should we commit our spirits to him? He was obviously given the authority to resurrect the dead.

Response: This was not a true resurrection as in what will happen in the last days, when Christians are raised to immortality. This was simply a temporary restoration of life. Elisha has no authority over that, Jesus does, so this is a case of apples and oranges.

Mondo