TheMan

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Posts by TheMan

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  5

  A case of "Monkey see, Monkey do"?

  by rockhound in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  does any of this sound a little familiar?

  from childhood the irish have been taught that every religion in the world is opposed to their religion, that theirs is the only one having divine right to exist, that all other religions are merely tolerated and that they continue through the benevolent sufferance of the catholic clergy.

  they are taught that bible knowledge is not necessary for christians, only a strict adherence to and belief in the church and its religious leaders is all-important.

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  TheMan

  Yes, the fact that the page number is 490, it's from 1958. Later on, the magazines would be numbered 1-32 for each one, not continuously.
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  5

  A case of "Monkey see, Monkey do"?

  by rockhound in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  does any of this sound a little familiar?

  from childhood the irish have been taught that every religion in the world is opposed to their religion, that theirs is the only one having divine right to exist, that all other religions are merely tolerated and that they continue through the benevolent sufferance of the catholic clergy.

  they are taught that bible knowledge is not necessary for christians, only a strict adherence to and belief in the church and its religious leaders is all-important.

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  TheMan

  Wow, absolutely. Simply switch out "Irish" for "JW" and you could leave pretty much the rest of the article intact! Although, I wonder if the JWs were as legalistic back in the '50s as they are today? I want to say yes, considering all the JWs put themselves through with WW II as an example, but was it always as big of a no-no back then to investigate other religions once in? I'm sure there's some quotes out there that could clear that up, but was it really a disfellowshipping offense? I've heard some in the org say that although many of the beliefs are the same, the attitude of judging others and paying attention to rules and regs really developed in the 70's and beyond.. Again that's heresay.. Does anyone agree or disagree? (I'm too young to know!)
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  23

  Today Is My Point of No Return - Or Is It?

  by TheMan in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  almost every night, i would get a phone call from my book study overseer, asking how i was, where i was.

  whereas witnesses, when they experience hard times, stop going to meetings?

  of course, my wife and i want to leave the witnesses, and i don't want to offend anyone in the process.

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  TheMan

  Thanks to all for your encouraging words and suggestions. It was good to hear from people in my court for change. I see just how minute and trivial it is to worry so much about how others think, especially in this org. My wife and I have decided that it would be best for us to just stop altogether. I think that, for us, it'll be much more painful if we dragged this out too much longer. Wish us luck! I'll be back with updates. I'm sure there'll be some interesting stories along the way.
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  30

  Were YOU a JW Who Was Always Afraid, Depressed or Ill?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  while i was an elder (in 2 congregations), over the years, i saw most witnesses that suffered from s o m e t h i n g.. either a witness had chronic depression, mysterious ailments that were never clearly diagnosed by a doctor, or were in fear.

  afraid to offend another brother's conscience.,afraid to upset the elders.

  afraid to grieve the holy spirit.

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  TheMan

  That is very true. This org expects so much from people, that it's to the point where there's no excuse not to "progress," to keep up with the organization, othrwise you're viewed as being weak, or willingly grieving the holy spirit. So, to simply cope, and to avoid being harassed by the brothers, many claim to be depressed, sick, or rely on the "illness" of another family member as an excuse. It's a survival mechanism. My parents did it just to cope.

  I've also seen it, though, when some actually develop depression, or a lower self esteem, due to always thinking that what they were doing was never enough. That was one thing my wife expressed. (This was especially true during assemblies and conventions - and can be very discouraging.) Sure the org tries to come across as understanding, by saying that everyone has their "limitations." For real? Thinking that I have "limitations" is supposed to make me feel better? If that doesn't make me think less of myself, I don't know what will...
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  23

  Today Is My Point of No Return - Or Is It?

  by TheMan in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  almost every night, i would get a phone call from my book study overseer, asking how i was, where i was.

  whereas witnesses, when they experience hard times, stop going to meetings?

  of course, my wife and i want to leave the witnesses, and i don't want to offend anyone in the process.

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  TheMan

  You know, you're absolutely right. Here I am sitting here upset bec I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, yet they're going to think of me the same way in the end.

  Thanks for the tips & words of encouragement. If anyone else has more tips or thoughts, I'm all ears. After writing my post, I feel much better about what I want to do. I guess I needed to get it all out.

  I know this was long, so thanks for listening. It really helps.
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  23

  Today Is My Point of No Return - Or Is It?

  by TheMan in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  almost every night, i would get a phone call from my book study overseer, asking how i was, where i was.

  whereas witnesses, when they experience hard times, stop going to meetings?

  of course, my wife and i want to leave the witnesses, and i don't want to offend anyone in the process.

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  TheMan

  OK. I posted about a month ago, about how after having many doubts, and just not wanting to spend more time doing the "Witness" thing anymore, I risked it all and spilled the beans to my wife. Luckily, (for the both of us), my risky venture paid off. She was in agreement, as she too was "tired of it." This has been great for us, and we are looking forward to being "free" of this weight on our shoulders.

  Apparently this has been coming for some time; it's just that one kept going because of the other! Also, my mother, and my wife's parents, are witnesses.

  Here's what we've been through in the past year. We changed congregations about a year ago. In my old hall, (which I grew up in), I had been serving as a MS, and at the point of changing halls, was essentially "burned out." I was giving talks all the time it seemed. (Us MS's had more School and and Service Meeting parts than the elders, it seemed!) I also had some of the weightier MS responsibilities, and had some unique family obligations, which I won't go into just yet. However, since I had grown up in the hall, my wife and I were able to "float along." We never consistently go tmore than 5-10 hours a month. In fact, I was appointed a MS only about two years after I was reinstated - (And not doing anything spectacular, I might add.) I basically knew the game, and played it. Being a JW was all we really knew! We also had many other younger couples our age in the hall, and we always stuck with each other when it came to service, hanging out, stuff like that. Although for some reason, we never got really close to any of them, which was always a source of frustration for us, especially my wife. Most were related to each other in some way, so they stuck with family. They weren't all that way, but most were. Anyway, many of us were floating along too, with the others that were simply serving because they were afraid of elder daddy and mommy. (So lame.)

  Anyway, my wife and I decided to change halls about a year ago, as we lived outside my old hall's territory so for convenience purposes, we switched to the hall that was about five minitues down the road, instead of 25 min. The change had quite an effect, as we abandoned a hall that had many other couples of the same age, for one that is much older in terms of average age. Not only that, but this new congregation is much more "spiritual." At first, it seemed great! The first meeting we attended there, every elder, and most members of the cong. greeted us, and we felt very welcome. (It helped that there were a couple of friends there that knew who I was, knew my parents from way back, and were aware of the fact that I was an MS, which they desperately needed (they only had one at the time!)).

  Again, at first, we thought it was great. What a change from our old hall!! Everyone seemed genuinely spiritual. We were invited to people's homes, and to eat out after meetings constantly. As a whole, the congregation was very spiritual compared to my old hall, and I still believe that is true. Except now, my wife and I are sick and annoyed of it.

  The annoyance began when it became very clear that people would not leave us alone. Things came to a head when an elderly family member of mine began to get very sick. This was both very stressful for both my wife and me, and so I missed a few meetings here and there; some evenings I needed to attend to things, and other nights I just needed to deal with the stress. But then, the phone calls started. Almost every night, I would get a phone call from my book study overseer, asking how I was, where I was. Sometimes, a phone call to confirm the announcements that were given on Thursday night, and other weird stuff like that?!? I'd also sometimes get calls on Saturday AM, asking where I was, and would I like to meet with the service group later that AM?? (Mind you my service time was not lacking at the time.) We then got a sheparding call, then when we missed one day of the two day convention, they "noticed" and stopped by that evening. At first it felt nice to feel the "concern", but after a while it seemed to go out of conrol. I felt like I always needed to give a status update to the "brothers" all the time. I understand some would love to go to a hall where attention of this kind is given, but my wife and I have always been very private people...And we were not keen to this at all.

  (This is unrelated, but one of the bros on the sheparding call said, "Why is it that members of Christendom, when they experience hard times, go to church? Whereas Witnesses, when they experience hard times, stop going to meetings?" I wanted so bad to say, hey dumbass, just think about what you just said. What do you think?????!)

  When I moved into the hall, I had specifically asked not to be reappointed as a MS. (I came with a letter of recommendation!). I wanted some time to deal with what was going on in the family, but was I left alone? Of course not. It seemed every meeting I was being harassed, asked to pick someone up, volunteer for a part, take on this, do that. It was unreal. I was basically a MS, but not in title. The only way I was left alone was when my wife and I did not report any time for one month (again, due to the family circumstance.) It was made very clear to me that my MS reappointment would be delayed because of that. (Which I asked not to be!! I tried to be forceful, while at the same time being "subject," as defiance wouldn't be Christian now, would it?) I was told I needed to get my time up, and be more productive in the ministry, even though they knew I was going through a lot, I still needed to put more effort into that. Oy! Nevermind the fact I barely had time to do anything else outside "the truth."

  Now, my wife is pregnant. So, in addition to my family responsibilities and both of us working full time, we are busy preparing for the big event!!! At the hall, I've been given a couple of MS responsibilities (even though I'm not a MS!). Yet I'm still being asked to do more. I even received a phone call at work last week, from my book study overseer, asking me where we have been the past couple of meetings (which we intentionally missed), and telling me that he wants me to help attend during the night of the Memorial. Of course, I said no since by then we'll have a newborn on our hands, and we'll want to be in and out, but then I'm rebuffed and told I should do it anyway. (Why do I have to fight with these guys all the time?) They make it so hard to turn down "spiritual assignments," and they go out of their way to guilt you for that. My book study overseer and his wife have also taken a very "special" interest in us. It's very clear he's trying to groom me for eldership (again, I'm not yet a MS, but whatever). And him and his wife, who are very "strong in the truth," are awkward, overbearing, and weird because of it, so needless to say they don't have that many friends, even within the org. Despite this, and the age difference, they've gravitated toward us. So not only do they see themselves as our close friends (which they're not but they seem convinced otherwise), he is the BS overseer so he uses the "friend" thing as an excuse to be all over us about stuff. It's kinda sad, so it's hard to fight agains bec I don't want to hurt any feelings.

  During this time, it's also become painfully obvious that many of our old friends from our old hall have pretty much moved on. We've only been gone for a year, and despite growing up with most of them, it's as if we never existed. I've always known most of them to be pretty shallow, but I didn't think THAT shallow. It's not a huge deal, as again we're pretty private people, and we socialize with folks from work and other folks. (Not like we have a huge social network outside the Witnesses, though.)

  Anyway, as I was saying at the beginning of this rant, my wife and I have talked quite a bit, and we've agreed we don't want to stay. Not only do we both have many reservations (many left unsaid over the years due to the though we might upset one another), I have many doctrinal issues, as well as the fact that I am done with this organization making so many unreasonable requests of time, just to be in OK standing. I barely have time to care for family obligations, work and personal time, nevermind the fact that I have a baby on the way. I am finding it to be much more of a challenge mentally and emotionally, and cannot stand to be around such closed-mindned, non-creative, self-righteous people, and exist in fear of them.

  However, the irony is despite my feelings, as well as the fact that I am the one that suggested leaving to my wife, I'm the one that's having a tough time actually going through with this...Don't get me wrong, with the meetings I've already missed, I'm loving the sweet freedom, both of thought, time, and real life. But's there's always complications.

  Here's what I'm dealing with. A month ago our hall threw us a beautiful baby shower. (Our old hall and other friends threw other separate showers!) We got so much stuff - it's almost wrong that we didn't have to pay for almost anything. They were very nice guestures. Of course, my wife and I want to leave the Witnesses, and I don't want to offend anyone in the process. We cant' bear to fade, so we really want to cut cold turkey. Yet, I don't want it to seem as if we stuck around just to take advantage of everyone's generosity. I'm not that kind of person, nor do I want to be perceived as such a person. Yet, because, of the way this org works, there's no honorable way to leave; without being thought of in this way. And of course everyone is wanting to see this baby after it's born. Great timing, huh? This is actually my biggest source of conention. Not sure why...

  And then there's the phone calls, visits, and stuff that I just don't want to deal with when we stop going to meetings. I'm harassed enough as it is today; I don't want to think how it's going to be once I stop attending for good. And due to the "spiritual" nature of this hall, I know they're not the type of elder body that will simply "give up."

  It's so funny that my wife (God bless her) seems much more gung ho about cutting cold turkey than I do, although I'm the one that brought it up the first place. Don't get me wrong, I just want it to end too, and realize that if I fade it may end up being worse (meetings in the back after every meeting, etc.). But I don't want to necessarily DA myself, or get DF'd. I just want to live my life, and close this particular chapter. I know, maybe I'm just a wuss and dont' want to deal with these inevitable repercussions.

  The last meeting we went to was last week Thursday (after missing a couple.) We skipped service on Saturday and skipped the Sunday meeting. (We've been able to deal with this bec of my wife being pregnant, so everyone is chalking up our absences due to her.) I did get a message from the PO on Saturday, not sure why, but I never returned the call. Now I know if I skip tonight's book study, the phone calls will start again. Some will be out of conern for my wife, but we just don't want to deal with this. So, in a way, I kinda see tonight's meeting as a turning point. We'll have missed a full week of meetings as of tonight, and that will really raise some red flags.

  So, is this really it? Should I stay or should I go tonight? Should I start the process now, or wait until later, like after the baby's born? Is this just a phase? Again, I don't want to upset or offend anyone (esp. with the baby shower thing), but I know people will get offended at some point anyway. At the same time, my wife and I just cannot fathom teaching our child any of this JW stuff that we were raised on.. In the end, neither of us really believe any of it. We also find going to the meetings to be very "painful." It's like I just can't take it anymore. I want to leave. I see myself leaving. Just how do I get there? It seems I don't have a problem leaving, it's just my unwillingness to hurt people. Either way, why is this so difficult? I've accepted this isn't the "truth," but should I keep going, just like so many other people who go to church but don't really believe? It's just so annoying. I really don't know what I'm asking, but what does everyone else think? What should I do? Why is this so hard? Why does this have such a grip on me? I wish I was never raised a JW. :(
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  39

  My Bethel Experience final chapter

  by new boy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there were other people who either killed themselfs or tried to kill themselfs while they were at "the house of god.

  one person who did kill himself was richard wheelock, press room overseer ......he jumped out of a window at the watchtower farm one day.......it seemed, he was never quite the same after his wife "willy" died..she seemed to be the only one that he could relate to.......which would make sence.....because he sure couldn't relate to any of us in the press room..........he would come over to our press and say "here is the work... get in out".......then just walk away.......he was not the type of person you would really want to talk to anyway......but wouldn't it be nice if just now and then, like every year or two, they might ask you how you were doing?.........you laugh.......but its true......i asked a friend of mind who was the press operator of press # 6 which at the time was one of the three biggest presses at bethel.

  he had been in the press room for 4 full years.

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  TheMan

  The final chapter? Noooooooo!
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  20

  NWT Revisions

  by Jeffro in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  there is mention on a wikipedia article that there was a 2006 revision of the nwt.

  is this true?

  what differences are there?

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  TheMan

  That's correct, the newest NWT translations are of a 1984 copyright. The writer may be referring to the new softcover version of the NWT that was released beginning in 2006. (Standard NWT in black hardcover is no longer available, even the pocket version is only now available in "paperback." The black and maroon "leather-bound" deluxe versions can still be ordered.
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  34

  My Debut

  by TheMan in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  after lurking for who knows how many months now, i finally did it.

  i posted!!!!

  i'll have to share my story at some point, but here's what made me do it.

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  TheMan

  Wow, so many responses already. Thanks to everyone for your support.

  I know I'm about to send my wife reeling through a lot of different emotions, but I'm ready. Believe me, if I didn't think my wife could take it, I wouldn't have done it. I've read enough experiences on this board where that simply didn't work. Truth be told, although both of us have grown up in "the truth," we haven't been like others who went straight to pioneering or going to bethel. Instead, I chose full time work (yet I skipped college bec it was "bad"), and so did my wife. Yes, I still went out in service, all the meetings, and was "faithful" enough to be appointed to MS, yet many of my friends who did not choose to work full time developed that "holier than thou" attitude with us, and lessened their association with us. That hurt a lot, just because we wanted to work full time, own a home and have health insurance??! Give me a break. And then there's those that don't think we should have gotten pregnant. Unbelievable. Anyway, many of my friends now are in the "truth" but just go to meetings and do the minimum amount of service. They were all raised in the "truth" too, but I wonder if most of them even give a hoot about God, although they know all the right moves for being a witness. If there's one thing I've learned (the hard way), what people say about witness friends is true, most are not really your friends.
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  34

  My Debut

  by TheMan in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  after lurking for who knows how many months now, i finally did it.

  i posted!!!!

  i'll have to share my story at some point, but here's what made me do it.

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  TheMan

  After lurking for who knows how many months now, I finally did it. I posted!!!! I'll have to share my story at some point, but here's what made me do it. I'm 25, and currently a regular meeting attendee. I've served as a Ministerial Servant for the past 4 years, excluding the past nine months, as I moved congregations and asked not to be reappointed (due to family issues - but really, I was just stressed out.) I was raised in the "the truth," however I started to have real doctrinal doubts when we were studying the Isaiah books. The stuff about 1914 and 1919 just seemed so foreign to me. Studying the Daniel book, and now the Revelation book surely haven't helped!!! I've also had some rough experiences, being raised in the truth, and it's amazing just how "into the truth" I was. With the help of the posters on this site, and some of the sites (jwfacts.com is awesome), I've been able to really see things for what they really are. It's just disappointing that it took 25 years of my life to get this far. Anyway, I'm feeling a huge ball and chain drop because today, my wife and I went out to lunch, and she started talking about her concern that we weren't spiritual enough (as we are expecting a baby soon!). It was then then I let it all out, my doubts and everything. I coudn't believe myself, but I couldn't keep it in anymore. I have been holding it in for so long, because I really didn't want to hurt her, especially since I thought she was dealing with enough - with the baby coming and all, and the fact that all of our friends are in "the truth." I was about ready for her to start crying, call me an apostate and slap me in the fact, but, to my surprise, she totally understood, and out come all of her doubts as well. I never would have guessed it....but it was so liberating. In fact, I swear I just fell in love with her five times over again, becuase she handled it better than I ever would have thought. Realistically, I know for sure this isn't going to be the last time we talk about this. In fact, I fully expect some type of backlash, as it would be pretty weird if this was it, but this made me realize the importance of being true to yourself, and being honest, especially with your mate. I don't advise on everyone in my situation handling it this way, but it was something that worked for me, and I feel 900 times better. This is going to be the first of many more discussions, and I'm thinking this is going to be the start of a good fade, or however I decide to handle. Any suggestions?? I'm still an avid believer of having faith in the bible, so I'll be working on that. I don't have a very exciting story, but I was raised in the truth, once disfellowshipped, and think maybe someone out there may be able to relate, so I'll post it shortly. Thanks to all for listening. You guys are great, and I'll be back!