I appreciate your argument in his behalf, Leolaia. You're charitable. I would agree with it, if, for example, Furuli were to try to argue explicitly from a synchronic perspective that the waw consecutive is an element of Classical Hebrew that later interpreters and translators (but, then, all translators are interpreters) wrongly read into the texts of the OT under foreign linguistic influences. Still, I think treating the whole OT, DSS, and inscription corpus synchronically might be methodologically unsound, just as it's silly for Witnesses to leap from one Bible book to another as if they are all the same work. There is grammatical development even within the OT corpus. Therefore, Furuli should also demonstrate that his new verbal theory is applicable to all of the OT texts (and the DSS and the inscriptions). Furthermore, to my knowledge, he has not demonstrated enough historical awareness even to dismiss these questions with an airy gesture. This leads me to worry that he has not even considered such objections or that he did consider them and found them too uncomfortable to address in print. He's quite creative, however, and worth reading, even if just for entertainment.
veradico
JoinedPosts by veradico
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Rolf Furuli
by Alleymom inthe following message posted on the b-hebrew discussion list may be of interest to jwd members.. http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2007-march/031707.html.
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Rolf Furuli
by Alleymom inthe following message posted on the b-hebrew discussion list may be of interest to jwd members.. http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2007-march/031707.html.
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veradico
I've read Furuli's essay in the _Your Word Is Truth_ book. He does not address the fact that ancient translations, paraphrases, and commentaries made by native speakers of Hebrew manifestly demonstrate that these people felt the force of the Waw Conversive/Consecutive/Conservative. Nor does he address the evidence from other Semitic languages which suggests that the Waw Conservative is utilizing and preserving certain features of ancient Semitic language (particularly in narrative contexts)—cf. J. Weingreen, _A Practical Grammar for Classical Hebrew_, Oxford University Press, 1959, pp. 90-91, 252-3 [the latter passage is by G. R. Driver]. Instead, he seems to have divided the verbs of the OT, the DSS, and the inscriptions into his own categories of semantic force. He then shows that the perfective verbs with and without waw prefixed fall into certain categories while imperfective verbs with and without waw fall into other categories; thus, he concludes that there is no semantic difference, merely a difference in appearance/sound. My primary objection is that his division of the verbs into his categories is rather subjective, whereas the morphological differences are visibly/audibly objective. I assume he interacts more fully with the observations and conclusions of such modern grammarians as Waltke and O’Connor in his doctoral thesis. The question of how to handle the Waw Consecutive is fascinating. Certainly, Furuli and the Witnesses are not alone in rejecting it. Other grammarians and translators have done so as well. But I’ve yet to see any make a thorough and convincing argument against the existence of this grammatical rule. The NWT translators certainly did not try. All of their arguments (in the Reference edition of 1984 and in the discussion found in the original green volumes) are arguments from authority. I look forward to reading what Furuli has to say to see whether he has anything more substantial to contribute.
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veradico
I'm with Oroborus21 (Edwardo), although I don't know that I'd go so far as to say I KNOW the real Jesus will come back as judge someday and determine who is really Christian. To say something like that, I'd have to be rather sure about what Jesus really taught. I think that almost everything you find in the Jehovah's Witness religion is within the diverse range of what, over the past couple thousand years, people who have called themselves Christian have believed. If we're talking about this from a historical perspective, I think they get to be Christian. If we're using the word "Christian" in some more subjective sense as a synonym for "good" or "truly Christian," I think most modern "Christian" religions are also far from what Jesus intended. I would argue that such doctrines as the high Christology, salvation through faith in Jesus' sacrifice, no longer following the Jewish law, and others are contrary to what the historical Jesus, insofar as we can glimpse him in the gospels, taught. In many ways, I think Orthodox Christianity is an improvement of what Jesus taught. It's more concerned with actually improving this world, less obsessed with the apocalypse, and has a rich, two-thousand year old tradition to draw on.
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Whats the strangest thing you've seen someone get in trouble for?
by LaniB ini remember one windy summer day, after a meeting on sunday morning, i walked out of the hall behind a sister who was part of the church congregation with her two teenage children.
her husband did not attend.
the wind caught her dress unexpectedly and blew it up a'la marilyn monroe and revealed that she was wearing (shock, horror) french knickers...... there were a few murmers behind me which i at the time put down to things like "oh poor girl, so embarrassing".
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veradico
I was spoken to for mentioning Star Wars in one of those little talks we give. Apparently, Star Wars promotes the occult (the Force and whatnot).
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Why are angels always white?
by slimboyfat inin pictures of conventions or the new system they tend to show a mixture of races, but the angels always seem to be white.
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veradico
I think the Western obsession with white and light is unbalanced. I'd prefer, for example, the 28th chapter of The Tao Te Ching any day. The angels are old white men because old white men have most of the power. Again, this is unbalanced and arbitrary, but so is much that we find in religion.
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Why are angels always white?
by slimboyfat inin pictures of conventions or the new system they tend to show a mixture of races, but the angels always seem to be white.
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veradico
They are also all men. Going to heaven would be a double shock for a black woman!
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QFR: "Never has a woman given Jehovah perfect obedience"
by Inquisitor inquestions from readers w07 jan 15 p.30.
in what sense did the congregator find only "one man out of a thousand" but not "a woman among all these"?
- ecclesiastes 7:28. the answer is written out in 3 paragraphs.. paragraph 1: placatory remarks to show that jehovah god is not chief misogynist.. paragraph 2 & 3:.
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veradico
I think you mean "Job" not "Jonah." If you look in other modern translations, some suggest that Job did not believe in the resurrection. Job 19:23-27 is one passage often used as a "proof text" for the idea of the resurrection; however, it probably refers to the Redeemer on the divine council (as opposed to the Adversary) finally standing up for him so that before he dies (while in the flesh--but some suggest the opposite idea "without my flesh") he would be able to see God and present his case. Job will be vindicated after his death by the record of how he was dealt with (vss 23-24), but, even before the disease consuming his flesh kills him, he would like to hold court with God. He never questions the power of God, so God's response in the book (Look! I'm big and powerful! Who are you?) never really addresses the question of justice. The other passage is Job 14. The NRSV translates it significantly different from the way the New World Translation does. In the NRSV, Job does not believe in the resurrection. At best, he lets himself hope and imagine for a moment before the thought is crushed.
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Uhhhhh, may have done something stupid...not sure...
by mama1119 inokay, so my best friend calls this morning.
she has left the borg, but the rest of her family hasn't.
she was invited over to her moms house last night for dinner and her grandparents were suppossed to be there.
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veradico
I was rather sure she would be. It's actually rather rare for people to jump in and defend others.
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Uhhhhh, may have done something stupid...not sure...
by mama1119 inokay, so my best friend calls this morning.
she has left the borg, but the rest of her family hasn't.
she was invited over to her moms house last night for dinner and her grandparents were suppossed to be there.
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veradico
Good for you! Bravo!
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Pan's Labyrinth
by Mystla inhas anyone here seen this movie?
if there has already been mention of it, i'm sorry, i've been afk off and on quite a bit the last month or so and have missed a lot of threads.. this is one of those hard to categorize movies.
it's a fairy tale.
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veradico
I know what you mean! That creature was creepy. I would not be able to have an appetite with that thing at the head of the table, even if I were sent to bed without dinner. I’m still trying to figure out what exactly was going on in that scene. Why the shoes? Why the eyes in his hands?
I like your point about the theme of magic as well, but I’m afraid I don’t have anything additional to contribute.