Whether the bookstudy is going the way of the convention lunches, the hardcover books, the magazines, the epic assemblies, and the longer public talk, or not, I think it's useful to explore the ways in which the bookstudy can be "dangerous" to the JW organization. Almost my entire bookstudy left at the same time. This happened for various reasons, some of them particular to each of the individuals involved. However, without the support of a close-knit community of like-minded (i.e., questioning) friends whose friendships developed, in part, as a result of the bookstudy "arrangement" throwing us together, it would have been much harder for us to leave. It got us in the habit of talking about religious stuff together in our living rooms. The other bookstudies were known to be less fun and less close; in fact, the even other _congregation_ was known to be more "conservative." Now I'm sure the other congregation and the other bookstudies look at what happened (our collective exodus) as a perverse vindication of their cold, ridged, authoritarian ways. Being ridged and authoritarian will not attract many new converts, but those attracted by such an atmosphere are surely the sort of sheep-like, servile people the Society is looking for.
veradico
JoinedPosts by veradico
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Emotional Reactions to the Loss of the Book Study
by DT ini think the loss of the book study will hit some like a death of a friend.
it will mark the end of an era.
it will forever change the religion of jehovah's witnesses and i believe the change is completely irreversible.. of course, most witnesses will be delighted by this.
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C.S. Lewis and his "trilemma".
by gaiagirl inauthor c.s.
lewis once wrote that one of three situations exist: .
1) jesus was the son of god .
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veradico
If there were a diversity of Christian groups (as we in fact know there were), would the folks who actually knew Jesus bother to try to correct every erroneous offshoot? Even if such were their desire, would these (mostly Jewish) followers be able to influence the numerous pagan churches? Even if Jesus called himself "Son of God" and did magic in his name, we can't simply impose a contemporary interpretation on his words and deeds. The question of what he meant remains. And the notion that Jesus' followers would "correct" a narrative about his life if it were not a sufficiently accurate representation of the "historical" reality does not take into account the ancient notion of modifying the material to fit the genre and the "ideal", the possibility of Jesus' followers reinterpreting their experiences with him, and all sorts of other possibilities. The situation is far more complex than Lewis' trilemma suggests.
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Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
by veradico inby robert imrie, associated press writer thu mar 27, 7:57 pm et .
weston, wis. - police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.
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veradico
I think it's interesting that these people claim they don't belong to an organized religion. I guess I always assumed people don't act this way unless they have some kind of organization to exert social pressure on them. How did they come up with the idea that God would cure their girl if they prayed hard enough? These sorts of ideas don't just spring into people's heads.
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Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
by veradico inby robert imrie, associated press writer thu mar 27, 7:57 pm et .
weston, wis. - police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.
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veradico
By ROBERT IMRIE, Associated Press Writer Thu Mar 27, 7:57 PM ET
WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.
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An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.
She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.
The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.
She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.
"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."
Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.
The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.
Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.
"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."
The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.
"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."
The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.
But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.
She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.
"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."
The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.
Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do." -
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The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article
by BurnTheShips ini found this one on the gene expression blog.
does religion confer evolutionary advantage?.
http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10875666.
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veradico
I am surprised they didn't investigate a link between language and religion. Gods often seem to me to be metaphors, or, rather, that particular class of metaphor called the personification, that have gotten out of hand. We look at the sea or the sun, a mountain or a river, and it produces in us a sense of awe. We drink a cup of wine, and it produces in us a sense of well-being. From experiences like that it's easy to make a leap from "that whatnot influenced me like a person" to "that whatnot is a personality, an independent agency." Metaphors and personifications are little stories, and little stories cannot help but become more complex over time.
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I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!
by Witness 007 insome bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!
the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.
now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..
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veradico
I don't know whether this has been said already, but what caught my attention about this subject title is its vehemence. Hating the Trinity seems rather extreme. Assuming God's existence, do the metaphysical details of his constitution really matter that much? If the idea of Jesus as God does not help your devotional life, I can understand your not using it. Also, I can understand the sort of academic curiosity that would lead one to try to pin down what the various early Christian belief's about the deity and personality of Jesus and the Holy Spirit were. After that, I think we part ways.
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It looks like I will become an elder this week!
by outofthebox inthat's right guys.
as i told you before, they boe have been considering me for the eldership.
which i don't care for, but since my family is stuck in this cult, i guess i can use the new position to help them see that the holy spirit has nothing to do with me being an elder.
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veradico
I remember wanting an elder friend of mine who stopped believing around the time I did to remain in his position. I thought about all the good he could do. However, I don't think I realized at the time the sort of pressures an elder is put under and the level of duplicity and inauthenticity one would have to embrace in order to make it work. I think what you're doing will put you in a position to do good, but you may be taking on more than you can handle.
Best of luck,
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Take out your bibles and tell me......with the proper verses
by JH inshould one adore and pray to jehovah or to jesus?.
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veradico
Greg Stafford is a good example of someone who still does not believe in the Trinity doctrine developed by the early Church as a compromise between and harmonization of the dominant Christologies but who accepts that Jesus can be worshiped. Jesus is Jehovah, in Stafford's view, both in the legal sense of being the representative of Jehovah and in the ontological sense of Jesus' having been made the exact image of Jehovah's very being. Thus, Jesus can be directly appealed to and adored, and Jesus can be addressed as Jehovah; however, Stafford can continue rejecting the Trinity doctrine in its full, robust form. The Trinity doctrine and Stafford's doctrine are both attempts to harmonize the various perspectives among early Christians. I think the biblical evidence is clear that Jesus did not believe he was God in the Trinitarian sense, nor did most of the early Jewish-Christians. He was, however, an apocalyptic mystic/prophet who, in the tradition of John the Baptist, had a distinctly private and personal relationship with the Jewish God; he and God were "One". Nonetheless, the evidence is also clear that soon after Jesus' death Christians, especially pagan-Christians, began worshiping Jesus as God. The details, of course, differed from group to group. The NT reflects some of the diverse doctrines and practices of the early Christians, if you start looking at some of the other texts produced by those communities, the situation becomes even more complex.
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I have lost all desire to study the bible... This sucks...
by cognac ini just feel that the bible was put in place so that people can use it for guidelines and so forth.
i don't think that you have to know everything to be accepted by god.... the only problem is, is that i no longer study with my husband either.
now, he's not seeing the truth for what it is and starting to revert back to jw land... but, just the thought of studying anymore makes me sick... it's just, when you study so much after awhile you just can't take it anymore... i would like to actually enjoy my life a little bit.... i'm sick of trying to prove my viewpoint.
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veradico
There's no rush with your husband. Devote your energy to your relationship, getting to know and enjoy each other in new aspects and contexts. When he's ready, he'll figure most of it out himself. We're all essentially alone when it comes to major stuff like this, but he'll know you're there supporting him. And you'll hopefully have an even stronger relationship as the foundation for a new life.
With regard to the Bible study, I agree. Take a break. If we are saved by knowledge (which does not seem fair, since many people will never have access to such knowledge), you've already got more than most. Read some fiction or poetry or even the religious texts of other cultures. The Bhagavadgita, the Gitanjali, and the Tao Te Ching are three of my favorites.
best wishes,
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Lets talk about Jesus!
by real one inluke 4:16-19 jesus, went back to nazareth, where he had been brought up, and as usual he went to the meeting place on the sabbath.
when he stood up to read from the scriptures, he was given the book of isaiah the prophet.
he opened it and read,.
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veradico
"Do you feel that Jesus can fufil His purpose in your life?" I don't really want someone else to use my life to fulfill his purpose. If his purpose happens also to be my purpose, I would be willing to work with him. However, I want to generate my own purposes and meanings in my life. If such things are imposed on me by anyone, even by God himself (presuming such an unlikely being exists), it would be a colossal joke to call my life MY life. There is no freedom where there is destiny and prophecy. I realize that the Christian message, at its best, is that God's purpose for me would not be an imposition on my nature but the true realization of the unique person I am. On a practical level, I don't see any institutionalized form of Christianity really embodying that notion; there is always a major concern with conformity and uniformity in order to self-define one's community against the "other." On an abstract level, I think the reason why the Christian notion is so appealing is that it's beautifully pure and idealistic. However, I ultimately don't believe in an ideal, permanent "self" whose purpose could be realized. We are all dynamic collections of properties. On the macro scale, it's appropriate to speak of a "self," but careful introspection (as Hinduism and Buddhism in particular teach us) reveals that on the micro level the "self" breaks down under analysis. Thus, at different times in my life there have been different "selves" with distinct purposes. I try to realize my purposes for my life as I go along. If any imperceptible beings who inhabit inaccessible realms of existence want to give me aid, they are welcome to do so, but I'm not going to waste my few precious years supplicating and serving them.