great article, but---citations please. WE adore you here, but I can't take this info to a practicing dub and say "JANH from JW.COM said this!!!!
((((((((JanH))))))))))
dungbeetle
JoinedPosts by dungbeetle
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29
Sign of the Last Days THEN!
by JanH inthe last days in the 14th century
all through recorded history there have been people who have pointed to the calamities, horrors and disasters in the world, and preached that this signified an imminent end of the world.
this isnt even unique to christianity, which started off with strong millennial expectations in the 1st century, and for the most part retains the same expectations almost 2000 years later.
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32
JESUS NOT THE MEDIATOR?
by Mary inguess i hadn't been paying "close attention" at the meetings a few years ago......apparently, jesus is not the mediator between god and men like the bible says, he's only the mediator between the 144,000 and jehovah - i guess the rest of us can go straight to hell in a handbasket...... .
how long has this bizarre theory been around??!!
i was absolutely stunned to hear this one, as i had never heard it before.
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dungbeetle
I think it is a given that JW"s in general are a very depressed lot. I don't mean to be practicing medicine without a license here, but honestly, anyone is capable of noting the most observable signs and symtoms of depression and it is hard to find a JW that does not have these signs and symptoms, especially the women and the children.
People experiencing the SIGNS and SYMPTOMS of depression are very vulnerable. It is also the reason you can't just TALK THEM OUT of their religion in twenty minutes. You can't talk a person experiencing depressive symptoms out of ANYTHING in that manner. And persons experiencing depression don't always notice things, they are too busy mentally survivng from day to day.
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Minors and Liability?
by Jhoy1611 inresearch has shown that one getting bathtized is entering a contractual agreement to be bound by the organization rules and governance.
such rules would include but are not limited to shunning and being dis-fellowshipped.
so i ask the community is a person who was bathtized as a minor who is now an adult liable for or bound by the rules of the organization?
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dungbeetle
As has been pointed out in many other threads on this board (do a search for 'minors') the United States has freedom of religion and that's the end of that.
There is one exception. WHERE their disfellowshiping policies can be shown to be toward the end of initiating, furthering or hiding a criminal conspiracy, their *ss is grass.
In the case of B. Anderson, B. Bowen and the Pandellos and many many others for instance; they were 'hunted down' specificially because they were uncovering a criminal conspiracy that has existed IN PRINT since 1967.
These people are right and there is no way around it, Watchtower IS CAUGHT with their pants DOWN. ANY JW who was expelled/shunned by congregational order over the child abuse issue of keeping molesters from the police likely has a GOOD GOOD case for suing Watchtower for damages. If you can show that your disfellowshipping gave you emaotional/mental problems and cost you money in therapy HAVE AT IT...GO GET 'EM.
Churches have to obey the laws of teh land same as everybody else. Protecting child abusers is ILLEGAL to one degree or another and churches ARE NOT IMMUNE to CIVIL LIABILITY and they may very well not be immune to CRIMINAL LIABILITY.
The hard part is going to be
(1) showing the damage. Money spent on therapy is damage and can be recoverable. Perhaps there are other ways too.
(2) showing the relationship between the expelling/shunning with crime coverup.
Neither will be easy, and it has to be done on a case by case scenario. Lots of hard work ahead of anyone wanting to take this route.
Hey crawdad..where are you?
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What's the "need" of this gathe...
by beroea ineven posting not so often, but with pleasure and feed-back as well, i do wonder why former-jw and i as well with my own subjects - have this "need" to gather and to discuss subjects related to wt.
some seams to use close to hours each days in front of the computer.
i don't see many other web pages of former-catholics or former members of other religions (not of my knowledge - i can be wrong).
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dungbeetle
The truth is, it looks as though EX-JW's are LATE on the scene when it comes to establishing outreach movements toward remaining members. It would seem that the more repressive the religion, the more difficult it would be to establish organized opposition---and the more difficult it will be to stop it once it starts!!!!
Former Scientology: 14300 hits (they've been picketing for years too)
Former Christian Scientists: 66100 (active since at least 1997)
Former Mormons: 14900
Former Freemasons: 5640
Former Bahai 5650
Lots more where that came from
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What's the "need" of this gathe...
by beroea ineven posting not so often, but with pleasure and feed-back as well, i do wonder why former-jw and i as well with my own subjects - have this "need" to gather and to discuss subjects related to wt.
some seams to use close to hours each days in front of the computer.
i don't see many other web pages of former-catholics or former members of other religions (not of my knowledge - i can be wrong).
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dungbeetle
Former moonies have been demonstrating against the Unification church for YEARS
Former Unification Church (Moonies) 87600 sites, I selected:
MOONISM / UNIFICATIONISM - A threat to democracy and freedom
http://www.csj.org/infoserv_press/press_moon_97nov/pressucexmem.htm
And don't forget Steven Hassan, former moonie and anti-cult crusader!!!!
In the Shadow of the Moons: My Life in the Reverend Sun Myung Moon's Family
by Nansook Hong, ex-wife of Rev. Sun Myung Moon's eldest son
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What's the "need" of this gathe...
by beroea ineven posting not so often, but with pleasure and feed-back as well, i do wonder why former-jw and i as well with my own subjects - have this "need" to gather and to discuss subjects related to wt.
some seams to use close to hours each days in front of the computer.
i don't see many other web pages of former-catholics or former members of other religions (not of my knowledge - i can be wrong).
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dungbeetle
Beraea you need to get out more dude!!!!!
...former Catholics. out of 86400 hits I selected:
FOR FORMER CATHOLICS.
http://www.catholicconcerns.com/FormerCatholic.html
"Former Catholics" Ministries
http://catholic.cephasministry.com/
Apologetic Former Catholics.
http://cultproof.cephasministry.com/catholics.html
Former Catholics for Christ (English/Spanish)
Evangelical Catholics ( Former Catholics are often the most vociferous taking
the lead to save souls out of their former Church)http://esoptron.umd.edu/divide/EC.html
ex-Catholics who have been saved through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
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What One Elder Is Saying About Dateline
by silentlambs ini recieved this email today i thought you might find it interesting.. dear bill: i have a question for you.
at book study last week, the conductor said that dateline's web site apologized for their show on jehovah's witnesses pedophiles because they had learned that the people interviewed on the show were "not who they claimed to be.
" i tried to find dateline's web site to see what they said but i was unable to do so.
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dungbeetle
Yes, the show was reaired with, in fact, some additional info. Here is the combined transcript:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=29734&site=3
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JESUS NOT THE MEDIATOR?
by Mary inguess i hadn't been paying "close attention" at the meetings a few years ago......apparently, jesus is not the mediator between god and men like the bible says, he's only the mediator between the 144,000 and jehovah - i guess the rest of us can go straight to hell in a handbasket...... .
how long has this bizarre theory been around??!!
i was absolutely stunned to hear this one, as i had never heard it before.
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dungbeetle
Watchtower 4/1/87
As the Mediator between Jehovah God and those who have been taken into the new covenant, he has been serving indeed as a wonderful counselor for these past 19 centuries. Now, since 1935, "a great crowd" of his "other sheep" has been taking in his wonderful counsel and is getting the finest instruction and guidance
WT 4/1/81
Why is that true? It is because the Founder of the celebration set it up for observance by those with whom he made a covenant for the heavenly kingdom. Although dedicated and baptized, those of the "great crowd" recognize that they have not been taken into that covenant for the Kingdom. They are not spiritual Israelites, forasmuch as they have not been taken into the "new covenant," which is made with spiritual Israelites through the Mediator Jesus Christ
WT 4/1/79
The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant
WT 4/1/73
As Mediator, Christ also helps those in the new covenant to fulfill its terms and to qualify to be kings and priests with him. However, not all attending this memorial observance are partakers of the emblems served. However.Jesus said: "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold [of the "little flock"]; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd." (John 10:16) They would support the stand the anointed ones have taken and would cooperate in preaching the good news to others. But God has not held out the heavenly invitation to them,
The Watchtowers of 2/15/66 and 11/15/72 give the direct impression that Jesus is mediator for all.
So, it appears from the pages of the Watchtower the change took place ON paper in 1972/1973.
This is what it says in Crises of Conscience (1999 edition, pages 270-271)
(November 16, 1979), the Societys president, Fred Franz, was presiding at the morning Bible text discussionhe stated that some were questioning the Societys position (set forth in a recent Watchtower) that Jesus Christ is the mediator only for the "anointed" ones and not for the other millions of Jehovahs Witnesses. He said of such ones: "They would merge everyone together and make Jesus Christ the mediator for every Tom, Dick, and Harry."
for me it was evident from Scripture that Jesus Christ did ofer his mediation to bring about reconciliation with God for every Tom, Dick, and Harry
Thanks Ray Franz!!!!!!!
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8
Poor Greg
by RR inyou guys ever hear of touchstone forum?
it's another one of those jw message boards.
but they've been beating up on greg stafford pretty good.. http://www.touchstoneforum.org/~dchoi/dcforum/dcforumid1/680.html.
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dungbeetle
I love the comment about "the rights of my dear sister in Calgary"
Your dear sister in Calgary had the 'right' in Canada to accept the treatment of her choice with out her loving brothers and sisters threatening her with shunning and expulsion if she DID accept blood.
Your dear sister had the RIGHT in Canada to spend the last few months of her life with her father who loved her so that he sacrificed EVERYTHING for her, without the threat of expulsion and shunning if she DID accept it on her own.
But Watchtower doesn't care about the legal rights of any among their group except rapists and molesters, and making money.
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Panorama investigation info!!
by freeborg inextracts from bbc web page regarding panorama investigation!!!!!!!.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/audiovideo/programmes/panorama/newsid_2124000/2124380.stm.
the jehovah's witnesses are christians who believe the teachings of the bible, using their own translation.
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dungbeetle
Fianlly...someone brave enough to report the truth.
Yes, Watchtower DID in the LITERATURE declare the end of the world was 'only a few remaining months away' although many people, on both sides of the Watchtower camp will declare they didn't.
And I like their blood policy description: No whole blood, but blood products are allowed. And they pointed out in a small part the changes in Watchtower policy regarding previous doctirne.
Go Panorama!!!!