AF:
: ... But I think I recall Covey talking about the unhealthy habit of becoming overly engrossed in one activity or pursuit.
:Kind of like becoming a Jee-Hoover Witness, eh?
Anyone (Witnesses included) can become inordinately involved in one activity. Either way, immoderate activity does not seem to promote mental and physical soundness at all.
: It seems that there are individuals using this medium of communication whose life's aim is to "help" JWs out of the "borg" or 'bring down the Tower.'
:That is true.
Glad to see you admit your "noble" goals in life, AF. I personally think you are wasting your time (spinning your wheels) and sticking your nose where it does not belong.
: If it tricks your trigger, I guess there is nothing anyone can do to prevent you from "helping" JWs out of the "borg."
:Freedom of religion and all that, eh?
Of course you have the freedom to continue possessing and acting on the basis of a faulty noetic structure. That is certainly your prerogative as an American. I would just want to make sure that I was following the first principle of the lex naturae, to wit, bonum est faciendum et prosequendum et malum vitandum.
: But I wonder if some here have not become monomaniacal in their deconstructive methodology.
:Kind of like the Jee-Hoover Witnesses, eh?
Jehovah's Witnesses do not simply try to dismantle or de-center the beliefs of others.
: They just cannot seem to let JWs enjoy freedom of worship.
:Kind of like Jee-Hoover Witnesses don't let anyone else enjoy freedom of worship, eh?
Folks are free to worship God in any manner they choose and they are also at liberty to reject theism altogether. That is their business. Even the apostle John fittingly wrote these words in the ultimate chapter of Apocalypse:
"He that is doing righteousness, let him do righteousness still; and let the filthy one be made filthy still; but let the righteous one do righteousness still, and let the holy one be made holy still" (Apoc 22:10-11).
I exercise wholehearted pistis in these words and try to apply them on this very medium of communication.
: They must interfere in the religious life of JWs.
:Kind of like Jee-Hoover Witnesses interfere in the religious lives of others, eh?
We do not interfere in anyone's religious life. In imitation of our Lord and Master (Jesus Christ), we offer life's water free. If anyone does not wish us salaam, however, when we share in the door to door work--we shake the dust off of our feet and go to the next door offering figurative bread and water to yet others.
: Yet what do they have to offer in return?
:Freedom from being in a cult, for starters. Freedom to think for oneself, too. Ah, blessed freedom!
I am not yet convinced JWs constitute a cult in any pejorative sense of the word. Furthermore, I have the freedom to think within the boundaries that God has set and, there ain't nothin' wrong with that. That fact is that every single existent in the world is limited by his or her facticity. Every rational agent thinks someone else's thoughts after them (an allusion to Johannes Kepler).
: Nothing, except believe what you want to or drink yourself half silly everyday and conduct a life governed by hedonic utility that is devoid of God.
:How sad that that's all you've learned from your time on this board. The fact is that ex-JWs on this forum are as varied in their styles of life as any other non-JWs are. Very few are advocating any particular life style. The fact that many tell about their life styles, or comment on various life styles, is in no way advocating such.
I did not say that everyone here has a hedonic orientation. Dave evidently does not. Neither does Copernicus, so far as I can tell.
: Furthermore, maybe some of you here have convinced yourself that the Bible is false, God does not exist,
:Those are things that cannot be proved or disproved absolutely.
:Whats your point?
My point is that some reject God and the Bible to salve their consciences. If there is no God or no future eschaton, many folks reason that we should simply eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die. They may also reason that the WT cannot possibly be God's spokesperson since there is no God. A healthy dose of agnosticism might be in order here.
I might add that *nothing* can be proved or disproved absolutely. There also appear to be some things that we know are true, but cannot prove them to be such.
: and Jehovah's Witnesses are not God's people.
:That's a fact that has been proved in hundreds of different ways. For example, JWs unscripturally use excommunication and shunning as a weapon. They often use it against people whose only offense is to disagree with JWs, sometimes even on minor issues. An organization that has misused its power like this for some 70 years, over and over and over again, is detestable to God, according to Scriptures you know very well.
You're badly mistaken. Excommunication is never supposed to be used as a weapon in the Organization. Maybe it is sometimes utilized in this way. But the Scriptures clearly show that disfellowshipping and shunning are primarily for the mutual benefit of the Christian ecclesia and the unrepentant believer. I have never personally known anyone who has been excommunicated for disagreeing with the Witnesses on minor issues. Usually one who is shunned rejects a number of key Witness teachings and becomes a poisonous root in the community. The apostle Paul provided directives for dealing with such men and women, however. We try to apply his counsel, albeit imperfectly.
: But I think that if I ever left JWs, I would put faith in Acts 5:35-39.
:Here you've stepped through thin ice. It has been proved beyond doubt that JWs are not "of God". Assuming God exists and acts on mankind's behalf, how do you think he acts? The Bible indicates that it's through various people. False religious organizations are exposed through the actions of people. Do you object to that? If so, then you can stop preaching the JW message right now.
In your subjective imagination, it has been proved that JWs are 'not of God.' You need to believe that in order to salve your conscience. That is fine, but please do not act like you are speaking ex cathedra. Your perceptions are your perceptions, AF. While God admittedly uses humans to expose falsity, the said humans utilized must really make sure that they are truly exposing error. I am not so sure that is what you are doing. A case in point is your article on Isa 40:22.
:Let's give a concrete example. Suppose you had been raised since birth in a Christian sect that practices free sex with children (don't bother arguing that such a sect isn't really Christian; you'd be missing the point). Suddenly you realize that this practice is wrong, and you get out. You realize that your religious leaders have been practicing pedophilia for years. What will you do? Leave them to God? Or do everything in your power to expose them and stop the molestation?
Your premise is utterly flawed, unless you were abused or you have evidence that JWs (as a group) think it is okay to have "free sex with children." We have already discussed the lack of verifiable evidence that obtains for the claims of Silentlambs. I will not go there again.
: History has certainly borne out the truthfulness of this passage.
:How?
There have been numerous sectarian movements in ancient and modern times that have failed. A notable example is the Jim Jones cult.
: But if God is the author of the said work, you will not be able to overthrow it, but will in fact be found fighters against God.
:Fine in principle; impossible to test in practice. If you disagree, then devise a test.
Pray and read God's Word.
:And again, you as a JW today may already be in this position with respect to any number of other organizations. Can you prove with certainty, for example, that United Bible Societies is not "of God"?
I personally have no real beef with the United Bible Societies. I may try to challenge others on doctrinal grounds. But I always encourage the reader to make up his or her own mind after he or she reads the debate.
: But I end with my original question. Are some ex-JWs monomaniacal?
:Monomania implies either mental illness or excessive focus. Some ex-JWs therefore, are certainly monomaniacal, just as some of all people are. Most on this board are simply focused. You have a problem with that? Are you prepared to define "excessive focus" or "mental illness"? If you try, watch out that your definitions don't point straight back at you and your friends.
First, I have not called anyone here 'mentally ill.' I am not qualified to make those kind of judgments. Secondly, I think it is difficult to define "excessive focus" in words. One may come out better delineating the formula "excessive focus" by employing examples.
If one spends every day and night engrossed in a certain activity, it seems that one is being excessive in his or her focus. Do you think that one who sits at home watching the "soaps" day in and day out everyday is monomaniacal? What about someone who plops himself or herself in front of a computer screen for hours as he or she focuses on overthrowing the Tower or exposing JWs as a cult?
Duns the Scot
