Posts by dunsscot

58

Duns, et al, Free Will Vs. Determinism

by larc in

jw
friends

what is your opinion on free will versus determinism?

my feeling on the subject is pretty schizophrenic.

as a person, i believe in free will.

dunsscot

Dear larc,

This will be my next to last post on this forum. I will probably visit when I get a break from study and writing and I am also going to say good-bye to everyone else. But I just wanted to thank you for the stimulating discussion, though we obviously are on two different sides of the "aisle." I will try and email you the information on Ellis.

:Duns,
Let's start with the last question first. Your verbal IQ is 132 plus or minus 7 points. I would guess that your performance IQ is about 125 based on normative data for people like yourself. To assert that your IQ is 100 is just a matter of blowing smoke.
If you provide your SAT or GRE scores, I will convert it to a verbal IQ for you.:

Years ago, I actually took IQ tests and scored relatively low on them. I took one a few months ago and my score had seemingly risen. I attribute it to increased confidence and a larger database of knowledge. (I.e., more sophisticated didactical training. Jane Mercer's study certainly allows for this conclusion.) Maybe I am wrong. But how would you explain a difference of at least one SD between two different tests?

:Social, emotional, and cultural factors: specificly, how many points will be shaved from the score? I already told you that tests are not culturally biased in predicting job success.:

Minority children (blacks and Hispanics generally score one SD lower than their Caucasian peers). That is a significant difference. BTW, what do you think of the Flynn effect? :-)

:Aspergis Syndrome: Don't know anything about it, but it sounds like the person you described can read the words, but doesn't understand or learn from them.:

Exactly! Asperger's syndrome is a milder form of autism.

:The autistic book writer: Most of the time autism is associated with a low IQ, but apparently not in this case. You did not say what this person's IQ was.:

The girl's name is Donna Williams. She has been called a "savant," so it seems that her IQ is not that high. She has actually written a 500-page book about her condition. But I do not know what her IQ is.

:You say you might find some exceptions to my statements. Perhaps, I have given WAISes to about 200 people with IQ's around 70 and haven't seen any yet.:

Perhaps, you have not. But I personally know some living and breathing exceptions to your rule.

:Again I ask: name a better predictor of occupational and academic success.:

I do not think that is my job. Besides, I think IQ tests scores may do better at predicting academic scores than they do at predicting job performance.

I will just say in closing, I think that psychometricians often ask the wrong question. I favor abolishing testing in all forms (occupational and academic). In the academic realm, I think one must first define intelligence and make sure that the said definition adequately explains our experiential existence BEFORE we talk about testing intelligence. I do not believe that intelligence can be circumscribed by G and I am highly suspicious of any attempt to determine intelligence in terms of the mathematical-science ideal (so Dooyeweerd). Thanks once again. I will resume my studies of the nature of intelligence and report back to you.

Take care!

Duns the Scot

"Nobody is taller than himself or herself."

58

Duns, et al, Free Will Vs. Determinism

by larc in

jw
friends

what is your opinion on free will versus determinism?

my feeling on the subject is pretty schizophrenic.

as a person, i believe in free will.

dunsscot

:One correction: Psychometricians don't administer tests. They design them and develope statisical methodology to evaluate them. Clinical and School Psychologists administer them. By the way, what are the purposes that they are being used for now, that were not intended in the first place? That is a very vague comment.:

Did I say that psychometricians administer tests? I don't think so. I looked back through the posts and this is what I found:

"The problem is that many psychometricians do not USE IQ tests for the said original purpose. What is more, I am arguing that IQ tests only measure certain types of intelligence, but certain folks in the Academy act like such tests can somehow tell us something about biological or innate intelligence. That simply is not true in light of sociological evidence that tells us one's culture and one's emotional state have a lot to do with one's IQ score."

By USE, I am referring to such examples as the 845-page tome by Murray and Herrnstein that appeals to IQ scores when suggesting the notion of genetic intellectual inferiority. Do you think that IQ tests were originally designed to measure innate intelligence? Do you think that (as Murray and Herrnstein also contend) IQ tests were originally designed to explain social stratification? A number of psychologists have rightly taken Murray and Herrnstein's USE of IQ tests to task, both literally and figuratively. The APA Task force did so literally. The six sociologists from Stanford that I mentioned earlier have done so figuratively.

:Cultural and Emotional factors: The effects on a test like the WAIS are minimal. Some of the 11 subtests can be used in different cultures with different language with no change whatsoever in content. Since the test is given by a trained professional, they would not administer the test to someone who was highly emotional. When you say culture and emotion has "a lot" to do with the score, how much is a lot?:

I did not say a test taker has to be "highly emotional" to perform poorly on a test. But the person could be suffering from test anxiety and not make it known to the examiner. He or she (the test taker) may also be a poor test taker. Additionally, by emotional, there are certainly numerous factors here. But anxiety could certainly be included here. Lastly, it seems that young African-Americans have to contend with a persistent inferiority complex. A lack of self-worth or certain dysfunctional home conditions can also affect one's test scores. Humanistic psychologists and sociologists like Jane Mercer have further shown that environment also plays a large role in IQ test scores. See Mercer's study involving Chicano children and improved IQ scores after the adjustment of five cultural variables.

:Gould states that "oftimes" the test utility is abused. How often is oftimes. Amongst trained professionals, I would say almost never. These are highly insulting and unproven assertions by academics who have never functioned as a practitioner. (If they can make assertions, so can I).:

It has been about five years or more since I read Gould's works and included them in my research on the quiddity of intelligence. So I cannot at this point provide any proofs to back up Gould's contention. But when he indicates that the UTILITY of such tests have often been abused, I think he is referring to books like _The Bell Curve_ and the way that the Academy in general uses standardized tests. He covers this point in his work on craniometry. If I find anything tonight, I will let you know.

:Role of education: One some WAIS subtest, none - on others some. A profile analysis of the subtests can in fact, determine things like possible cultural deprivation.:

True.

:Next time you are at the library for Psychological Bulletin and read the article my Hunter and Schmidt. They know a hell of a lot more about this subject than the textbook writers, believe me.:

Not only have I read "textbook writers," I have also read the books by Sternberg, Gardner, the six sociologists from Stanford, and a number of other works dealing with this issue. But my paper was written years ago and I am now in the process of revising it. I am now approaching the question of intelligence from a philosophical perspective.

Duns the Scot

"Nobody is taller than himself or herself."

58

Duns, et al, Free Will Vs. Determinism

by larc in

jw
friends

what is your opinion on free will versus determinism?

my feeling on the subject is pretty schizophrenic.

as a person, i believe in free will.

dunsscot

Larc:

:Duns,

:Further IQ facts. The average score is a hundred with a standard deviation of 15. This means that 2/3rds of the population have scores between 85 and 115. Do scores along this continuum make a difference? You bet. An adult with a verbal IQ [of 70] on the WAIS can read at the third grade level at best. Most are functionaly illiterate.:

There are a number of factors that we must consider when evaluating scores on the WAIS. What if a person taking the test speaks English as a second language? What if the one taking the test is a poor test taker or suffers from test anxiety? Both Kaplan and Saccuzzo have found that certain "nonintellectual factors" (cultural, scholastic, or emotional) influence one's score on the WAIS. What is more, I personally know a young man who has been told he suffers from Asperger's Syndrome. He normally scores 70 on IQ tests, but he reads better than most of his middle school peers and he has made several 100s on spelling tests. Furthermore, his speech is quite articulate, despite his handicap. He is not the only person in this situation who has accomplished such tasks, however. Plotnik also relates the story of an autistic girl, who authors books. She obviously has to have a certain command of language to perform this task. Admittedly, I have not conducted a scientific study to verify my intuitions here. But I think one could find examples of folks with IQs of 70, who do not conform to your description above in the least. I might lastly mention kids who suffer from ADD or ADHD. At least some of these children score 70s on IQ tests. But they may read much better than their peers.

:At the other extreme, Terman's classic study with people in the top one percent have productivity levels in terms of patents and copywrights that are ten times higher than those that are above average but not that gifted. Obviously, someone with an IQ of 70 can barely write a sentence let alone write a book. Is IQ an important construct? No question about it.:

As I noted above, there are people with IQ scores of 70 that do write books and outperform their peers in certain academic areas. As for those in the upper one percent, what about the fact that researchers who succeeded Terman found that out of the 1500 gifted children that Terman tested, 10-30% obtained advanced degrees, whereas 30% never finished college and 2% flunked out. Researchers also found that 9% of these subjects had serious emotional problems and 7% committed suicide.

Rod Plotnik thus concludes that "As a group, these gifted individuals were generally very successful in life but not at the extraordinary level that might have been expected or predicted from their very high IQ scores (Colangelo 1997). For example, do you think Marilyn vos Savant's achievement as magazine writer matchhes her extraordinary score?" (Plotnik 289).

:Since I had to come back to explain this, I will mention that this is based on a study I conducted many years ago that was in the Journal of Rehabilitation. I compared WAIS verbal IQ with reading comphrension as measured by the Nelson Reading Test. The sample size was about 300. The data also showed that verbal IQ set an upper limit for reading comprehenion in the IQ range from 70 to 100. Above 100, IQ didn't make a diference up through a reading level of 11th grade.This raises another interesting question. Does IQ affect free will? I would say that people with very low IQs also have a narrower range of free will than someone like you or me.:

I will concur with you on the reading comprehension level issue. The individuals that I talked about with IQs of 70 read well (i.e., articulately and rapidly), but they have trouble comprehending what they read. But as I mentioned earlier, they do well in spelling and articulation of speech.

Concerning my IQ and yours: That is just it. You do not know what my IQ score is, do you? What if I told you that my IQ score was below 100? What would you say? What if it was well below 100? Maybe one SD below?

Duns the Scot

"Nobody is taller than himself or herself."

58

Duns, et al, Free Will Vs. Determinism

by larc in

jw
friends

what is your opinion on free will versus determinism?

my feeling on the subject is pretty schizophrenic.

as a person, i believe in free will.

dunsscot

Larc,

:Duns,
I spent considerable time giving you a history of IQ testing and a good working definition, and you blow it off with a causal remark that you are critical of IQ tests because they don't measure every unique aspect of intelligence. They weren't designed for that purpose!!:

I appreciate the history and working definition that you provided, Larc. And if you will notice, I did not simply 'blow off' your comments with "a causal remark." I am well aware of what IQ tests were designed to measure. The problem is that many psychometricians do not use IQ tests for the said original purpose. What is more, I am arguing that IQ tests only measure certain types of intelligence, but certain folks in the Academy act like such tests can somehow tell us something about biological or innate intelligence. That simply is not true in light of sociological evidence that tells us one's culture and one's emotional state have a lot to do with one's IQ score:

"According to F.A. Hanson, intelligence tests are supposed to measure a person's ability to define words or solve problems that appear on standardized examinations. The drawback to this process, however, is that every 'correct' answer on an intelligence test is based on a person's previous didactical training as well as his or her particular cultural experiences. If the individual taking the test is proficient in a certain scholastic area, or if he or she is thoroughly familiar with Western culture, the said test-taker will probably do well on a standardized test. Alternately, if one has not learned certain academic subjects, how can we expect him or her to do well on such intelligence tests?"

Stephen J. Gould writes: "IQ is a helpful device for identifying children in need of aid, not a dictate of inevitable biology" (Gould 12+). Lest one misconstrue Gould’s observation, it is important to realize that he does not believe we should abolish intelligence testing altogether. Nevertheless, he does think that those who use standardized tests to measure human intelligence have oftentimes abused the utility of such tests.

:Nonetheless, they are the best single predictor of occupational advancement and academic success e.g. graduate school.:

Both Plotnik and Sternberg question these assumptions and provide evidence to the contrary.

:I also provided you with descriptions in the differences in the ability level on the IQ continuum, which are striking. As far as I am concerned you are just spouting the acedemic Zeitgeist which is the popular opinion to take.:

I will get to those comments tonight. I am trying to do so before I leave this board.

:Since you are into the books, you might specify the aspects of intelligence that are not measured by standard tests. For the test that measure the unique factors, also specify how large the "g" factor is in each case. If you decide to take on this task, you can skip one distinction - crystalized versus fluid intelligence. IQ tests measure crystalized intelligence.:

Gardner, Sternberg and others have already delienated the aspects of intelligence that are not measured by standard tests. So have the authors of _Inequality by Design_. That is old news. :-)

By the way, did you find a quote for me re: Ellis, and did you read the thread re: Ellis?

I have not looked at Ellis yet. I was trying to reply to your thoughts on IQ tests. This is my last night (for real!) on this board. I no longer have time to spend hours on this forum.

Duns the Scot

"Nobody is taller than himself or herself."

58

Duns, et al, Free Will Vs. Determinism

by larc in

jw
friends

what is your opinion on free will versus determinism?

my feeling on the subject is pretty schizophrenic.

as a person, i believe in free will.

dunsscot

:Duns,
I am not going to read any books for awhile. I have provided plenty of material on IQ tests you can consider and comment on if you wish.:

I have already provided some comments and will try to post some information regading your other thoughts. Suffice it to say that it looks like we are on two different sides of the fence when it comes to IQ testing and free will. If you want to read a book in the future, try _The Volitional Brain: Towards a Neuroscience of Free Will_ (edited by Benjamin Libet, Anthony Freeman and Keith Sutherland). It was published in 1999 by Imprint Academic. ISBN is 0-907845-11-8. I just received my copy today and it looks pretty good.

Enjoy!

Dan

Duns the Scot

"Nobody is taller than himself or herself."

58

Duns, et al, Free Will Vs. Determinism

by larc in

jw
friends

what is your opinion on free will versus determinism?

my feeling on the subject is pretty schizophrenic.

as a person, i believe in free will.

dunsscot

Larc,

:In the 1940's David Wechsler developed the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for children (WISC) and the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale (WAIS), which represented a significant improvement in several ways over the Stanford Binet. All of the aforementioned test are still in use today, but with revision and update from time to time.:

As I mentioned earlier, I am not crazy about IQ, SAT or GRE tests. My thinking has admittedly been influenced by certain theories of intelligence put forth by previously mentioned psychologists. But I think that theories of multiple intelligence have adequately shown that intelligence cannot be circumscribed by Spearman's G factor. What is more, the Wechsler Intelligence Scale has its own set of problems. Here are some things I have found while researching the quiddity of intelligence. The comments are my own observations in light of the research I have conducted.

". In addition to the arguments posed by Sternberg and Gardner, the book What is Intelligence? (edited by Jean Khalfa), outlines various types of intelligences (mathematical, logical, musical). In view of the fact that intelligence is such a broad concept, the book provides the following stark observation: "The IQ notion of intelligence as a single dimension along which to judge children and adults, is among the most personally and socially damaging notions of this century" (17).

"Actually, certain sociologists have demonstrated that social and cultural variables most definitely affect a test-taker’s IQ results. This fact cannot be successfully disputed when it is considered in the light of recent sociological and psychological evidence. Scholar J. Blaine Hudson points to a major factor shaping the scores of minorities on intelligence tests by noting: "racial differences in average IQ scores are simply one measure of the impact of racism and racial inequality" (145).

A similar observation is made in The IQ Mythology by Elaine and Harry Mensh: "Jefferson's assertion that 'one could scarcely find' a black person 'capable of tracing and comprehending Euclid' soon proved embarrassing. Most blacks were slaves, and as such were barred from learning to read, let alone being permitted to study mathematics. Yet it was a black mathematician and astronomer who confronted Jefferson with the most telling repudiation of his views' (104-105).

:It is interesting that the measurement of intelligence came long before the theories of intellegince came, and there are several.:

But remember that intelligence preceded and supersedes intelligence tests and theories.

I might also ask what you think of the Flynn effect. Lastly, have you ever read the book entitled _Inequality by Design: Cracking the Bell Curve Myth_ written by six Stanford sociologists?

Duns the Scot

"Nobody is taller than himself or herself."

58

Duns, et al, Free Will Vs. Determinism

by larc in

jw
friends

what is your opinion on free will versus determinism?

my feeling on the subject is pretty schizophrenic.

as a person, i believe in free will.

dunsscot

Larc,

:As a general measure of intelligence, IQ tests have very high reliability and high construct validity.:

I agree. But there are other problems with IQ tests.

:The correlation between IQ scores of identical twins raised together is about .9. The reliability of the test is .95. Therefore, the IQ of twins is nearly identical.:

Rod Plotnik observes that the median correlation in IQ scores for identical twins raised together is .85. On the other hand, the median correlation in IQ scores for identical twins reared apart is .72. It thus seems that we have an interplay between nature and nurture going on vis-a-vis these test scores. Plotnik also notes the reliability of the test. But he reminds us these results can be misleading if we do not keep two significant things in mind: "how intelligence is defined and what genetic influence means." His comments can be found on page 292 of the textbook he put together. Plotnik further reminds us that IQ tests fail to measure certain types of intelligence. This fact alone makes me critical of IQ tests. See the studies by Gardner (1997), Sternberg (1997) as well as those by Mayer and Salovey (1997).

Duns the Scot

"Nobody is taller than himself or herself."

58

Duns, et al, Free Will Vs. Determinism

by larc in

jw
friends

what is your opinion on free will versus determinism?

my feeling on the subject is pretty schizophrenic.

as a person, i believe in free will.

dunsscot

Larc,

:Even if determinism is absolutely true, it is a bad thing to teach people. As an input, it creates in the minds of people the idea that they are not to blame for anything. Our society is that point right now. We have become a nation of fault finders and blamers. People are less willing to take personal responsibility for their own actions.:

Philosophers who object to the notion of strict determinism (in its manifold forms) often do so for this very reason. How can we hold people responsible for their actions when they do not have "free will"? The Texan woman who drowned her five children recently is one case that makes this question arise as well as the cases of pedophilia that folks have regularly discussed on this board. How can anyone find fault with molesters or child killers, if we do not have free will? Another question that I wonder about is, does it really matter what we teach people about free will, if they are not really free with regard to their volitional faculty?

:Here, I think your idea of the invulnerables is a useful one. What about the ones from a lousy home who turned out well. What about the men that looked at pictures of naked ladies and the was the end of it. They didn't go out and rape or abuse children.Whenever I hear a story that a man raped a woman and it was her fault because she showed cleavage and leg, I want to puke.:

I know that I have not provided an extended description of invulnerables. I was primarily going on what my sociology professor told me. But the concept is clear enough and there are supposedly examples of such invulnerables, as you note. My sociology professor was (by her own admission) reared in a highly dysfunctional home. But she was able to overcome her traumatic childhood experiences.

:Therefore, I hope the book proves me wrong, because I would like to see a good alternative to what I am presenting. If the book is good, I will get a copy myself. I guess in summary, I am saying that the theory of determinism is useful as a framework for scientific inquiry. It is a very bad theory to be adopted into mainstream society. Thus, I am at the same point as I was when I started this thread. As a scientist, I believe in determinism. As a human being, I believe in fee will.:

Personally, I do not think the debate between those who believe man has free will and those who do not will ever be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Those who presuppose determinism will continue to do so, and those who advocate free will be convinced that they are free sans apodictic evidence that confutes their position. Having said the foregoing, I will let you know what I think about the book and you can decide whether you would like a copy or not.

It sounds like you are feeling the same way that Kant did, when he wrote his _Prolegomena to Any Future Metaphysics_.

The great thinker from Konigsberg discussed the antinomies of reason vis-a-vis free will in this work and basically contended that we cannot satisfactorily adjudicate the issue of free will over against determinism since we are epistemically restricted to the world of phenomenal appearances. Free will, according to Kant, is a noumenal matter. Therefore, we can never know we are free on the basis of reason alone, because reason cannot plumb or fathom the Dinge-an-Zich. There are admittedly reasonable arguments on both sides of the issue. It seems that we are at an impasse as far as reason is concerned. I opt for free will, however.

Lastly, I will just note that you make a distinction between being a scientist and a human being. I think such distinctions are contrived, artificial, and stem from a Neo-Kantian Gestalt.

Duns the Scot

"Nobody is taller than himself or herself."

22