I don't think there's any reason to be paranoid about the word "organization", many of us live and work within entities that would be considered organizations. The early church was indeed organized but it was not ruled as such. The problem with the Watchtower is not that it's an organization but rather that it is an oligarchy. It is ruled by a small group of people who believe they sit in Jesus place and are authorized to send out a lightning bolt or two to keep the sheep in order. The faithful and discreet slave was to dispense food no where is he given rulership or governing power. That belongs to God and in turn to his Son.
timetochange
JoinedPosts by timetochange
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19
1 Tim 3:1-10 promotes an organisation
by besty inspeaking with a hardline friend (oxymoron alert) tonight he used the above verse as proof that jehovah needs a hierarchical organization - otherwise why stratify the membership?
any refutation?
cheers .
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Romans 14 describes law on blood as "conscience matter"?
by M.J. inromans 14 shows that some jewish christians in rome abstained from meat, while others did not.
apparently there was a bit of a tussle between the two camps.
now the big question is why exactly did some feel they needed to abstain from meat?.
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timetochange
Paul's difference with James illustrates well the fact that the early Christians were not under a ruling governing body arrangement. Freedom of conscience was practiced and Paul certainly encouraged it. Early Christianity was fluid and open to private interpretation.
As for the blood discussion I don't have the reference in front of me right now but in the Law an arrangement was made for allowing a family who found their farm animal in the field already dead to not have to suffer the loss of the meat. They could go ahead and eat the meat but needed to recognize the law on blood by remaining unclean for a time and possibly some other requirement I don't remember exactly. But the point is there was no death penalty involved. On the contrary there was a recognition of the families circumstance and they were not made to suffer the loss.
To paraphrase Jesus, how much more value is a man than a sheep! The Society's blood policy is more demonic than anything else.
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121
Does God REALLY exist? (An Attempt at an Online Bible Study)
by theMartian inwith the global village now teaching evolution as an absolute fact, and the 'creation museum' making a mockery of the bible, any bible study should begin with this question!
however, the biggest hinderence to learning truth is clinging to concepts we've accepted as 'truth' without being willing to take a closer look at other possibilities.. i ask that ridiculers have fun on other postings, so that it might be possible to enjoy comparing what we have learned, how we see things- and also share what we have found to be facts-truth!.
(and i will not "count the time", as promised; that's unimportant to me, anyhow!).
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timetochange
AlanF,
I certainly would. However, before I did that, I would have a great many questions and issues for him to deal with. I've already mentioned a few in this thread. Another is rather more personal: Why, in past times when I prayed fervently, did I receive no evident answer? As the comedian Don Rickles used to say: What am I? Chopped liver?
I doubt you would ask those questions first. You are looking at things from the perspective you have now, if God should get in contact with you your perspective would immediately change and so would your immediate questions. I'm not saying your questions have no merit, they certainly do, but they would not be the first that come to mind if the event we are discussing should occur.
Do you really think that I and others of similar mind are so stupid as not to be able to filter out fundamentalist poison and get to the meat of these issues?
No, I don't think you're stupid on the contrary. But I was not referring to mental ability when I wrote: "The answers to the questions you asked are there the problem is that fundamentalists and literalists have poisoned the water to such an extent that reason is no longer an option..." When someone is primed to reject something there is often no way to get over the wall and most attempts at reason are understandably dismissed, this is human. It's like a Trinitarian attempting to convince a diehard anti-Trinitarian - very difficult and most times impossible.
These issues go far beyond what your typical narrow minded, ignorantfundamentalist is concerned with.
Absolutely.
These issues get to the heart of religiosity itself, whether the fundamentalist kind or kinds that are less strident. The point is not the stridency -- it's the fundamental claim: there is a God who exists and is worthy of worship because of blah blah blah. From fundamentalism to the most wishy washy of Christian belief systems, the basic idea is this fundamental claim. And that is what I take issue with, on both a factual evidentiary basis and a philosophical basis.
Let me use a little license here just for the sake of this discussion. If God exists he is condemned because the stupid people who claim to represent him have lied and on top of that God has remained silent and all of this proves/strongly suggests he does not exist. We are material beings and since no material answer to our questions has been provided this proves/strongly suggests he does not exist. No one today has seen God this is another strong suggestion of his non-existence. Allowing mankind to rule the earth as he pleases even to the point of harming himself is also proof/strong suggestion of non-existence.
You know what the great irony is in all of this? At one time ancient peoples who believed in God believed in visions, resurrections and virgin births because though they could not understand how such things could really come about they believed God could accomplish it. Today, we in effect can cause visions via the technology available, virtual reality etc, we can have a real time conversation with not only someone on the other side of the earth but also in space, breathing life into a lifeless body and starting up a heart that has stopped beating is a daily occurrence today as well impregnating women without sexual intercourse occurring (parthenogenisis among so called lower life forms is also well documented today). We can boom voices from the heavens and as it were part waters, we heal diseases which were at one time unhealable, we can spread disease at will if we so wish via biological warfare, we can even annihilate a city reducing it to dust along with all life in that city. We can feed every person on earth if all of us really wanted to, a veritable land of milk and honey is possible if people could curtail their greediness and bickering, even raining food from the sky is possible today. We can purify a body of water making it potable or "curse" it and kill every living thing in it. We are even pushing open the door to direct brain to machine communication and experimenting with invisibility.
So, today we know that physically every so called miracle in the Bible is by no means an impossibility meaning of course that if we can do it so can a higher power. But so what that doesn't prove a thing! True, but it is an interesting turn of events. In God's image?
We have to look beyond the popular religious views and look at things from a perspective more broad more in line with reason. The Bible was written for the people of its day. People who needed something far different than we, people who lived in times impossible for anyone today to really grasp. We cannot put ourselves in their shoes we cannot judge them by todays standards as if we today are somehow more moral than they were. Also, whatever interaction there was with God and whatever he caused or allowed to be done on what basis do we ourselves judge God? Americans live on lands also taken by force, a land where slavery was also practiced, where indentured servitude also existed, where women were denied many legal and social rights etc., and this thousands of years after the times of ancient Israel and during more a enlightened era.
But God knew better, he should have had the Jews live a more enlightened life. What difference would it have made? Look around us today, many have a problem following the simplist and most common sense of laws. If God should say I want you all to live as you should live so here's the cure for cancer and all other major diseases, the recipe for a safe cheap renewable fuel, and the secret to living twice as long as you do today, all I ask is to stop the warring among yourselves. Would we? No. And if God should as a result not provide those things many would turn around and say God knew he was asking the impossible, he knew we wouldn't stop killing each other it was all an empty promise.
God could cause the parting of the Atlantic, the blooming of trees on the moon and mass visions and dreams and there would still be many who would insist all those events have a natural explanation and they would ridicule those who believe God caused them. So, it really doesn't matter...everyone believes as they themselves find.
It's always been that way. The thing that has real value today is how we treat one another not how we believe. There are saints among atheists and demons among the religious and of course vice versa. What group of people whether secular or religious has the sole claim to the moral highground? None. Religious people in and of themselves have no moral authority or claim to pure truth and neither do atheists. We are all in the same boat. The ancient Greeks might have said, "the gods are laughing at us," maybe so. Maybe their waiting for us to put the godlike powers we have to good use and fix what we can.
I cannot convince anyone that God exists. The conversations can be interesting and mind sharpening but that's all they are. We are each on the other side of a divide and all we can do is claim our side of the canyon is the prettier one. Maybe God will one day fill the divide with water making a meeting of the minds possible, who knows. As we now know today, all things are possible.
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Does God REALLY exist? (An Attempt at an Online Bible Study)
by theMartian inwith the global village now teaching evolution as an absolute fact, and the 'creation museum' making a mockery of the bible, any bible study should begin with this question!
however, the biggest hinderence to learning truth is clinging to concepts we've accepted as 'truth' without being willing to take a closer look at other possibilities.. i ask that ridiculers have fun on other postings, so that it might be possible to enjoy comparing what we have learned, how we see things- and also share what we have found to be facts-truth!.
(and i will not "count the time", as promised; that's unimportant to me, anyhow!).
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timetochange
AlanF,
My guess would be that you have probably asked these questions scores of times or more to different people and of course have received responses that did not satisfy you or were in your opinion so off the wall that they only served to confirm what you are already fully convinced of.
May I ask, if for some unimaginable reason the God of the Bible (as you call him) were to in some way cause you to know of his existence would you come here and let us know? Would it be possible for you to do so? Yes, I think you would. I know you would because you are a man of integrity.
The answers to the questions you asked are there the problem is that fundamentalists and literalists have poisoned the water to such an extent that reason is no longer an option rather confrontation and a desire to scream out foul and injustice are the call of the day. And rightly so!!
Fire away! If not, peace to you AlanF and your family.
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Really, What's So Wrong With The Jehovah's Witness Religion To You?
by minimus inis it that bad??
is it worse than fundamentalists of every other sort?
are jws worse than radical muslims?
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timetochange
I'm no longer a Witness so their religion is no different to me than any other Christian religion today. They all have their good and bad, strengths and weaknesses, truths and lies, hypocrites and sincere ones, loving acts as well as treacherous ones, angels and demons in the form ministers and elders and priests.
Not too different from the 1st century actually.
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121
Does God REALLY exist? (An Attempt at an Online Bible Study)
by theMartian inwith the global village now teaching evolution as an absolute fact, and the 'creation museum' making a mockery of the bible, any bible study should begin with this question!
however, the biggest hinderence to learning truth is clinging to concepts we've accepted as 'truth' without being willing to take a closer look at other possibilities.. i ask that ridiculers have fun on other postings, so that it might be possible to enjoy comparing what we have learned, how we see things- and also share what we have found to be facts-truth!.
(and i will not "count the time", as promised; that's unimportant to me, anyhow!).
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timetochange
When Jesus was on earth he fought against the religious hypocrisy so prevalent among those men who claimed to represent God but in reality only represented and protected their religious position and power, in other words their system. Jesus was the not first to stand up against religious hypocrisy nor is he the last many here boldly attempt to do the same. Religious hypocrisy both in Jesus day and our day has served to kill trust in religious men, this is good.
It is obvious that Jesus and the early Christians did not consider the Hebrew OT a sacred word for word representation of God's word. The very fact that they not only quoted from both the Hebrew text and the Greek Septuagint (which differ in various places) but also paraphased and even quoted from books not included in the Hebrew canon gives evidence that they were not all that concerned with perfect word accuracy, verb tenses etc. as so many Christians are today. The teaching of Biblical inerrancy and literalism are man-made and for many have killed trust in the understanding of the Bible as it has been handed down to us, this too is good. But it is no wonder that the bottom line for many is to leave not only their religion and the Bible but also God. This is the inevitable and natural consequence of the treachery found in religion.
But, AlanF, not everyone will go down the road of atheism or agnosticism (though I think we're headed in that direction) and it's not because they need to believe in myths or toothfairies or a moral God to keep them in line. Believe it or not some truly love God. Some here on this board love God. You may believe that stems from some fanciful need or from past associations or over emotionalism but that would be your supposition not the reality of what goes on in the hearts of some. They are sure of their relationship with God and you are sure of your agnostic stand, it feels good to be settled and sure in a world where so much is changing so fast. In that regard we are both at peace.
As for evolution I'm willing to say that physical evidence exists that opens the door to that idea but not to the notion that an either/or exists between evolution and God (which is the topic of this thread, the existence of God). The origin of matter is an enigma for atheists unless of course they conclude that eons ago in empty space something originated from nothing. On the other hand to say that matter has always existed is to make matter God.
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Does God REALLY exist? (An Attempt at an Online Bible Study)
by theMartian inwith the global village now teaching evolution as an absolute fact, and the 'creation museum' making a mockery of the bible, any bible study should begin with this question!
however, the biggest hinderence to learning truth is clinging to concepts we've accepted as 'truth' without being willing to take a closer look at other possibilities.. i ask that ridiculers have fun on other postings, so that it might be possible to enjoy comparing what we have learned, how we see things- and also share what we have found to be facts-truth!.
(and i will not "count the time", as promised; that's unimportant to me, anyhow!).
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timetochange
I'm closing my part in this discussion for now with this quote from a Talk Origins Archive Post of the Month-August 2006 titled: An Atheist'sDefense of Religion
The writer is an atheist his post however is somewhat godly in its bold and balanced attempt to bridge a divide between people. The whole article is found here: http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/aug06.html#part2
"For the same reasons that scientists of faith are not beset by cognitive dissonance I am able to maintain that religion can be a viable and valuable human endeavor. The epistemic limitations of both "ways of knowing" lock out fundamental contradiction. Science is method. It is an operational tool for discovering natural reality. As such it is limited in scope. Science can comment only upon that which can be observed and measured. There is no operational capacity within the methodology of science for evaluation, much less dismissal, of extra-natural ideas. And as science can never be complete, it can never rule out extra-natural possibilities.
Theology, to the degree it relies upon the extra-natural, deals substantially with morality and message. It addresses understandable human concerns about the nature of their existence and, regardless of whether the message is evidentially or logically supported, is capable of offering contentment and direction to those in need. On the other hand, when theology proposes to make statements about nature, which only science is configured to address effectively, it must be prepared to cede ground. Belief in a thing can never be enough to demonstrate its factuality.
Science and religion operate in different spheres of influence. When they come together, as they do now and then, in collision or confluence, it is because of the conceits and misconceptions of humans, not any inherent compatibility or contradiction.
In making the case for religion from a less philosophical perspective, it seems clear to me that one thing none of us, atheist or theist, wants is for a massive population of flawed and fallible humans (as are we all) that believes it cannot act ethically without religion, to try to do so. The last thing we need is a bunch of people who believe they have no internal moral compass running around without their external one.
As atheists or agnostics we may feel that a believer is misguided in his acceptance of things unseen, but we have to acknowledge that science, by definition, leaves the set of things unseen unaddressed, and consequently in no way disproved.
If one accepts the methods of science one accepts that knowledge is provisional - that one can be wrong. If it's possible to be wrong, even about something so apparently fanciful as a deity, then the belief in a deity exists as an intellectually live alternative to an atheist's provisional philosophy. An acceptance, even a spirited defense of that live alternative shows both the intellectual confidence to take in and consider ideas antithetical to one's own, and an openness to a universe that will never be completely known."
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Does God REALLY exist? (An Attempt at an Online Bible Study)
by theMartian inwith the global village now teaching evolution as an absolute fact, and the 'creation museum' making a mockery of the bible, any bible study should begin with this question!
however, the biggest hinderence to learning truth is clinging to concepts we've accepted as 'truth' without being willing to take a closer look at other possibilities.. i ask that ridiculers have fun on other postings, so that it might be possible to enjoy comparing what we have learned, how we see things- and also share what we have found to be facts-truth!.
(and i will not "count the time", as promised; that's unimportant to me, anyhow!).
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timetochange
AlanF,
Obviously, you believe that this "missing piece" must be filled in by the Christian God. The obvious flip side of the coin is that without such a God, people cannot have a "great capacity to reason, to love, to have compassion" and so forth.
When one believes an intelligent creator exists and that he is responsible for life on earth the "flip side of the coin" is that without him there would be no life.
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Does God REALLY exist? (An Attempt at an Online Bible Study)
by theMartian inwith the global village now teaching evolution as an absolute fact, and the 'creation museum' making a mockery of the bible, any bible study should begin with this question!
however, the biggest hinderence to learning truth is clinging to concepts we've accepted as 'truth' without being willing to take a closer look at other possibilities.. i ask that ridiculers have fun on other postings, so that it might be possible to enjoy comparing what we have learned, how we see things- and also share what we have found to be facts-truth!.
(and i will not "count the time", as promised; that's unimportant to me, anyhow!).
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timetochange
AlanF,
Many Christians pose a question similar to yours: "How can you act morally without God to give you moral standards?" The idea seems to be that, without belief in God, people must be fundamentally amoral and so have no incentive not to commit all manner of atrocities. The converse question, though, is a real stumper and shows why that question is self-defeating: "Are you telling me that without God to tell you not to commit all manner of actrocities, you would?" It's a stumper because answering Yes or No gets them into hot water. "Yes" means that they know they're a scumbag; "No" means that their question is bogus.
Where have a I written anything like that? On the contrary I've said that I believe most people are at heart good people! You are making false assumptions. I believe in God but I am not a Bible literalist nor do I believe the Bible is completely without error. Nothing on earth is without flaw the Bible included. It's a mistake to clump all Christians into one lump we are not all cut from the same cloth. Houghton is an example of that as are many other Christians including myself. You're not reading you're reacting.
You said you're an agnostic. What prevents you from embracing atheism completely?
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The Nine Resurrections!
by Blueblades indid the nine resurrections reported in the new testament really happen?
if so, why is there nothing said about them other than that they were resurrected?what about their life after they were resurrected?
wouldn't it be a strong witness that jesus could bring the dead back to life?.
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timetochange
Blueblades,
I would think that the New Testament accounts of these Nine Resurrections would tell us a lot more about the individuals who were resurrected and what they did with the rest of their lives and future death. It would make for a much more powerful witness to Jesus' claim to resurrect all his followers in the future. What do you think?
If the NT were a story then it would make sense that all these loose ends should at least merit a paragraph or two of explanation but the NT is not a story it is a collection of books written by a group of people whose intent was to promote the teachings of the Christ and the new way that was born from those teachings. Those letters that were preserved, for instance, served to encourage, teach and reprimand the Christian congregations to which they were addressed they were not meant to be historical accounts.
The NT itself gives evidence that we do not have all the letters written. It is possible that these missing letters may have contained some comment or two concerning these things but there is no way of knowing that. I suppose it could be compared to the letters Abraham Lincoln wrote during his Presidency which discuss the major issues of his day but do not address everything because that was not their purpose.