Posts by truthsearcher

175

The facts on crucifixion, stauros, and the "torture stake"

by Leolaia in

finally, i will look at biblical and patristic evidence bearing on the crucifixion of jesus in particular.

we need to examine the earliest known descriptions of the kind of crucifixion adopted by the romans and the specific terms they used to refer to it.

apparently the society believes that crux still meant "stake" in the second century a.d., when tacitus composed his annals.

truthsearcher

I also have been researching this topic because it came as such a suprize that this was a view being put forth by the WT. In my journeys, I also contacted the archeologist in Jerusalem (see post by Lemans7), and this was the result.

My first email (edited to remove identifying info): "I have been trying to research crucifixion methods, in response to the teaching by Jehovah's Witnesses that Christ was crucified on an upright stake as opposed to T shaped cross (they claim this T shape crept into church history as a form of pagan corruption). Their sources are all from the late 1800s to 1940. (They quote W.E.Vine on the meaning of stauros, and an old article by a J. Parsons on "The Non-Christian Cross" which is available online at project gutenberg, however, I have not been able to find out who Parsons was and what his qualifications were for this article). I believe that more recent scholarship would show their view to be incorrect. I read with interest your article on crucifixion. Do you have any suggestions for where else I can look? Thank you in advance for any help."

Joe's response: "I get asked this all the time and my response is all the NT says is he was crucified, not how. Joe"

My next email:

"Thank you for a quick reply. Is it your position then, that there is insufficient archeological data to say for certain? I have not read the actual journal article, but I assume you have since it was footnoted in your article on crucifixion, but does the Canadian forensic science article on crucifixion seem to be well-done? It does address the issue of hands up over head as opposed to stretched out to the side. Thank you again"

I was referring to his article which refers to an experiment done re:crucifixion which showed that an outstretched arm postion significantly prolonged the time of death, whereas arms up over the head would have caused death in minutes. see

http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html

His reply: " We know from eye witness accounts from WWI and II that one dies rather quickly in that position. Joe"

I also found an online research article by [removed at Author's request], University of Hawaii

[link removed at Author's request]

There was also information at freeminds.org

http://freeminds.org/doctrine/cross.htm

I'm sorry if this has duplicated other posts.

46

Something happened at church yesterday

by lovelylil in

jw
friends

so my hubby wanted to go to church yesterday.

it was a non-denominational one in the town next to ours.

i went along because he feels he needs a church to attend to keep him on the right track.

truthsearcher

Oops, I meant to say that at our church and many others we know of, the children's workers are required to have a police-check before being allowed to have that position. We also have a yearly session called "plan to protect" which outlines the procedure for reporting abuse, and also we have a rule that there has to be at least 2 adults at all times with the kids, bathroom doors are left open, children are not allowed to leave the building except with their parents. These policies are in place to protect the children against any possible abuse (although the church has never dealt with a situation, they see the necessity of being proactive in this evil time).

46

Something happened at church yesterday

by lovelylil in

jw
friends

so my hubby wanted to go to church yesterday.

it was a non-denominational one in the town next to ours.

i went along because he feels he needs a church to attend to keep him on the right track.

truthsearcher

I'm so sorry that you had such a negative and upsetting experience as visitors to a church. As so many have said, please don't take this as an indication of the way all churches would respond. Over the years, we have attended different denominations and congregations, and they were all a little bit different in terms of children's ministry. We have always enjoyed having our children with us in the service, and I don't mind baby noise in the background either. There are churches that have absolutely no children's programs at all, and maybe this is something that you would like to pursue, but I think that in time your teens would enjoy fellowshipping with others their own age. It was suggested that perhaps a letter or a phone call might be in order to the pastor--I'm sure that he would be very sorry that this happened, and perhaps he needs to have a little talk with the ushers about being more sensitive to newcomers...even if you decide never to return, it might be something that would help others. Have you tried any Baptist churches? We have found them to be excellent Bible teachers and locally run, so there is no hierarchy to deal with.

11

chilling similarities to WT in "Leaving the Saints" Anyone read it?

by truthsearcher in

hi all: i just finished (in one day) the 2005 book "leaving the saints" by martha beck.

it is a very disturbing inside look at mormonism, wife abuse, sex abuse, mental illness, lies, coverups, and apostacy.

if anyone is interested, i could post some interesting quotes.

truthsearcher

Check this website Leavingthesaints.com

Martha has received over 2,000 emails reporting that they too were sexually abused within Mormonism (the book was only published last year). She has an online discussion about the book for any who are interested. I don't have time to look right now but it might be helpful.

11

chilling similarities to WT in "Leaving the Saints" Anyone read it?

by truthsearcher in

hi all: i just finished (in one day) the 2005 book "leaving the saints" by martha beck.

it is a very disturbing inside look at mormonism, wife abuse, sex abuse, mental illness, lies, coverups, and apostacy.

if anyone is interested, i could post some interesting quotes.

truthsearcher

Martha mentions in the book that her family denied anything. What else would you expect from a cult? That denial is located on a Brigham Young University website.

However, Martha had extensive scarring in her nether regions that was unexplainable. My point is not necessarily to defend her story (because who truly knows--only she, her father and the Lord), but to point out the similarities that are revealed about how man-made religious organizations operate.

11

chilling similarities to WT in "Leaving the Saints" Anyone read it?

by truthsearcher in

hi all: i just finished (in one day) the 2005 book "leaving the saints" by martha beck.

it is a very disturbing inside look at mormonism, wife abuse, sex abuse, mental illness, lies, coverups, and apostacy.

if anyone is interested, i could post some interesting quotes.

truthsearcher

I found my copy and the local public library, so I would suggest you check there. The publisher is Crown Publisher, 2005. Be warned, Beck's story is disturbing and has a "new-age" flavour.

Here is a quote on disfellowshipping:

"To me the Latter-day Saint community felt more and more insane, a multimillion-member extrapolation of my own dysfunctional family...On the other hand, when I chanced to pass a distant relative of childhood friend on the street, they often turned quickly away, becoming obsessed with cracks in the pavement or tree trunks until I was safely out of range. I didn't know if they had decided to "shun" me or if they were simply afraid someone would catch them speaking to me." p.242

33

Is manner of dress more important than respect for Jehovah?

by LaurieM in

my mother and i were discussing the fact that she was told by a minister of the jehovah's witnesses upon being asked whether mother was going to be attending a book study at her local kingdom hall and mother requested whether she could wear slacks she was told that it would not show respect to jehovah and that women in the kingdom hall should "dress appropriately" by wearing skirts or dresses.

after discussing this, my mother and i feel that the manner of dress of a jehovah's witnesses, whether man or woman is totally irrelevant to respect to jehovah god.

clearly, even if one were to present themselves at hall in rags, that person is not disrespectful to jehovah if his mind and heart are open to god's word.

truthsearcher

I showed up at a Kingdom Hall with a message for an elder. I was wearing pants, my kids were in jeans. They wanted to take us in and introduce us to people (see my post on love bombing). I resisted, saying that I wasn't dressed appropriately, but they insisted it would be fine. I guess because I am a potential convert that they are willing to overlook such things. No doubt it is an indication of my need for the organization to set me straight!

11

chilling similarities to WT in "Leaving the Saints" Anyone read it?

by truthsearcher in

hi all: i just finished (in one day) the 2005 book "leaving the saints" by martha beck.

it is a very disturbing inside look at mormonism, wife abuse, sex abuse, mental illness, lies, coverups, and apostacy.

if anyone is interested, i could post some interesting quotes.

truthsearcher

Here is a quote on the dealings with sexual abuse in the Mormon church:

"What researchers found in modern Mormonism was similar to the attitudes expressed in my great-great grandfather's journal: Women who sought advice or help after being sexually abused were most often told to be silent, keep their secrets, and ask themselves whether they were really sure it wasn't their fault--or their imagination. They experienced what psychologists call sanctuary trauma, the result of their running for protection to the very places and people who reaffirmed the message of the original abuse." p. 182

11

chilling similarities to WT in "Leaving the Saints" Anyone read it?

by truthsearcher in

hi all: i just finished (in one day) the 2005 book "leaving the saints" by martha beck.

it is a very disturbing inside look at mormonism, wife abuse, sex abuse, mental illness, lies, coverups, and apostacy.

if anyone is interested, i could post some interesting quotes.

truthsearcher

Hi all: I just finished (in one day) the 2005 book "Leaving the Saints" by Martha Beck. It is a very disturbing inside look at Mormonism, wife abuse, sex abuse, mental illness, lies, coverups, and apostacy. If anyone is interested, I could post some interesting quotes. I have wondered about the possibility of using Mormonism as a way to get JWs to examine their beliefs...

I have to go out but I'll be back later to check.

33

Is manner of dress more important than respect for Jehovah?

by LaurieM in

my mother and i were discussing the fact that she was told by a minister of the jehovah's witnesses upon being asked whether mother was going to be attending a book study at her local kingdom hall and mother requested whether she could wear slacks she was told that it would not show respect to jehovah and that women in the kingdom hall should "dress appropriately" by wearing skirts or dresses.

after discussing this, my mother and i feel that the manner of dress of a jehovah's witnesses, whether man or woman is totally irrelevant to respect to jehovah god.

clearly, even if one were to present themselves at hall in rags, that person is not disrespectful to jehovah if his mind and heart are open to god's word.

truthsearcher

If I may add a conservative Christian perspective to this issue: Manner of dress has been an issue in some churches due to an interpretation of an OT law about it being wrong to wear the clothing of the opposite sex (don't have that reference right handy...) which led to the belief that women should not wear slacks, but dresses. Our society used to follow that pattern, but has changed. Some churches still lean that way, though. The truth is, however, that in Biblical times men and women both wore robes, so if we really want to do things like the early church, maybe everyone should get out their kilts! Also, since we go to church for corporate worship, should we not want to dress for the King? How would you dress if you were going to meet the President, Prime Minister, Queen Elizabeth or ______________(insert local royalty). But is it not possible for women to wear dressy pants?

Actually Jesus was very clear about not judging the hearts of others by external factors, and ministered to all, regardless of race, sex, social level, etc. To me, the situation you describe is another example of man-made rules meant to impose a standard while not addressing the heart of the matter--modesty and reverence, regardless of what you wear.

Any thoughts?