I expect our Canadian friends will be unavailable in about an hour for the next 3 hours. If Canada wins, I wouldn't expect them at all the rest of the day.
USA! USA!
AllTimeJeff
JoinedPosts by AllTimeJeff
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14
Well, its Hockadeddon at the Olympics
by AllTimeJeff ini expect our canadian friends will be unavailable in about an hour for the next 3 hours.
if canada wins, i wouldn't expect them at all the rest of the day.. usa!
usa!.
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Understanding JW Recruiting Concepts Can Help Others To Leave
by AllTimeJeff inunderstanding jw recruiting concepts can help others to leave.
when i first left jehovah's witnesses (jw's), i was somewhat amused at the sheer amount of anti jw websites out there.
while websites like freeminds.org and jwfacts.com are great, (non hysterical sites that stress fact and presentation over emotional responses), there are at least 5 times as many other sites that act as if you should treat a jw at your door like you would a spreader of the ebola virus.. i don't disagree with the fact that jw's are somewhat dangerous and usually go for the low hanging fruit.
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AllTimeJeff
TD said:
I have absolutely no data to make this up, but my gut feeling is that those who have coverted as adults are unlikely to leave at all. --Certainly far less likely to leave than born-ins.
I agree with you here mostly. I too have only anecdotal evidence to offer, but it seemed pretty clear to me that born in's are the ones who are most likely to want to examine their faith of birth at some point down the road. The fact that the GB virtually forbids internet research, and yet, each new generation of born in's have internet access everywhere from libraries to McDonalds makes this a harder reality for the GB to deal with.
For those who convert as adults, I think it truly must be taken case by case. However unlikely it is that adult converts will leave, I know some that have. It's all about being honest with yourself. There is no doubt in my mind that most converts today have real issues, and want a framework and context to see their problems. Enter JW's, stage right.
Sirnose, feel free to use the post. Thanks.
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2012(The Movie): If the world would end that way, would it be logistically possible for WBTS to have ALL JW's in a spaceship like that?
by african GB Member injust want to hear what other people think,.
by the way our cong.
had a "needs" talk warning people not to watch this movie.. i have to say however that after watching it, i almost went to elders to confess my 'apostate sins,' in order to survive that big day..
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AllTimeJeff
African GB Member
Just want to hear what other people think
I think this is a ridiculous question. Thats what I think.
AGBM, please respond to this question: Why are you asking THIS question? What possible relevance does it have?
If that is something that you are curious about, (you know, spaceships and JW's) then I have only two possible conclusions to draw; either you are borderline crazy, or you are intent on starting up a waste of time, stir up weirdness and emotionalism, thread.
I am not saying this in the hopes that others pile on and flame you. I really don't want that. But I hope you will answer my question, because frankly, your question does not merit a response.
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Understanding JW Recruiting Concepts Can Help Others To Leave
by AllTimeJeff inunderstanding jw recruiting concepts can help others to leave.
when i first left jehovah's witnesses (jw's), i was somewhat amused at the sheer amount of anti jw websites out there.
while websites like freeminds.org and jwfacts.com are great, (non hysterical sites that stress fact and presentation over emotional responses), there are at least 5 times as many other sites that act as if you should treat a jw at your door like you would a spreader of the ebola virus.. i don't disagree with the fact that jw's are somewhat dangerous and usually go for the low hanging fruit.
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AllTimeJeff
Dissed, I didn't mean the thing about the magnets...
Wobble, share what you can. Even if you feel like a "hysterical" (my word) approach is what is needed, at least you are dong what you think you can. One point though is this, you can't get these guys to accept anything if it isn't their idea to go and get it in the first place.
That is why the internet age we live in has been so harmful to the GB. No, they haven't imploded, but their rate of growth, donations, and overall zeal has dropped off dramatically. I think this is directly attributable to the fact that via the internet, water exposing JW's is available. There is some place to go, and you don't have expose yourself to do it. You can seek out information from the privacy of you own home.
It only requires a JW to be honest with themself. That is really the greatest challenge, and it is the one that any former JW wishing to expose the GB has the least control over.
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Understanding JW Recruiting Concepts Can Help Others To Leave
by AllTimeJeff inunderstanding jw recruiting concepts can help others to leave.
when i first left jehovah's witnesses (jw's), i was somewhat amused at the sheer amount of anti jw websites out there.
while websites like freeminds.org and jwfacts.com are great, (non hysterical sites that stress fact and presentation over emotional responses), there are at least 5 times as many other sites that act as if you should treat a jw at your door like you would a spreader of the ebola virus.. i don't disagree with the fact that jw's are somewhat dangerous and usually go for the low hanging fruit.
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AllTimeJeff
Understanding JW Recruiting Concepts Can Help Others To Leave
When I first left Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's), I was somewhat amused at the sheer amount of anti JW websites out there. While websites like freeminds.org and jwfacts.com are great, (non hysterical sites that stress fact and presentation over emotional responses), there are at least 5 times as many other sites that act as if you should treat a JW at your door like you would a spreader of the Ebola virus.
I don't disagree with the fact that JW's are somewhat dangerous and usually go for the low hanging fruit. Anyone with a curious, questioning mind who doesn't immediately accept the dogma is usually given the lowest priority from an individual JW or a congregation. Which brings us to a very important key to helping JW's leave if they feel trapped.
Most JW's today are low hanging fruit as far as the Governing Body (GB) is concerned. These are ones who bought in quick, questioned little, made the commitment, and are now, for lack of a better word, stuck.
So when I see some hysterical, nearly theatrical attempts at discrediting JW's on the internet (subliminal pics in Watchtowers? Satan worship at Bethel? Get real....) in an effort to get current members to quit, it makes me laugh. It sure wouldn't have worked on me while I was an active JW. Why try concepts that ultimately, don't work and aren't the real reason why JW's leave anyway?
Since the information age began in earnest in the late 90's, information via the internet on any subject, including JW's, is readily available. Personal real life stories are usually enough to inform a somewhat reasonable JW of the consequences and dangers of living the JW life.
So if you really want to help JW's leave, then you have to understand something; most are JW's because they didn't question a whole lot. Or, to put it another way, they were persuaded to accept an overly simplistic answer to those questions they had so they wouldn't question anymore. That is the JW way, surface answers only.
They didn't become JW's because the Governing Body claimed to be representing the faithful and discreet slave of Mt 24. No one new understands that, they trust one day they will. Most don't become JW's because JW's claim they got 1914 right. New ones generally don't understand the 1914 teaching anyway and trust one day they will.
Like any new recruit to a religion or cult, they simply grow to feel comfortable with the little group/congregation they get associated with. In the case of JW's, it isn't the convoluted prophecies and dogma that are unique to JW's that are promoted.
Paradise earth is promoted. Living forever is promoted. A loving brotherhood is promoted. The rest of the JW dogma, other then the basics, aren't consequential.
The rest of the dogma is mentioned in passing, then filed away.
So if someone didn't become a JW because of 1914, or the weird hierarchy of the GB, is it reasonable to think that screaming about these lies (they are lies, no doubt) will affect great change?
So how does one loosen up JW's? Just like the GB likes to get the low hanging fruit for their purposes, there is low hanging fruit within the JW organization, although their dynamics are actually polar opposite from the typical JW profile.
The first question is, why do JW's leave anyway? Some learn about the lies, but most have been mistreated by an organization that claims to be loving, and even has their own unique definitions of what love is.
Like any sane human, once mistreated sufficiently, prepare for them to take off and spread the word. Dogma isn't the point. No one in my opinion joins or leaves JW's because of the dogma alone. In fact, most leave because being mistreated makes them take a fresh look at the dogma they really never took the time to study and understand in the first place.
JW's have very weird beliefs. In an initial recruiting study using one of the publications they use, JW's will mention them briefly in the hopes that they are accepted. They want the study to think in these basic terms "Before studying with JW's, I didn't know that Jehovah was the true god, Jesus was gods son, not part of the trinity, and that paradise earth is waiting the faithful after the destruction of the wicked. I don't understand 1914 or what the faithful and discreet slave means, but I trust I will. And they say that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE? Sure, I never paid attention to that in school anyway."
Remember, if you really want to affect a JW, or expose JW's, then you can do that, but ultimately, this is a "bring a horse to water, but you can't make them drink scenario."
Hysterics don't work. Reasoned facts do. Innuendo's and sensationalism doesn't work. Real life stories chronicling the mistreatment, neglect, incompetence, and sometimes criminal neglect (where pedophiles are concerned) are enough to loosen the mind, so that honest hearted JW's will feel they have permission to defy the GB, and research JW's on their own.
That is the only way you can help a JW to leave. Bring them the water, leave them the water, wait for them to get it.
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The dirty little secret of Watchtower PREACHING WORK you may not know
by Terry in[if !mso]> <mce:style><!
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#vml);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#vml);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#vml);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#vml);} [endif][if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:donotoptimizeforbrowser /> </w:worddocument> </xml><![endif].
here is a dramatic statement: .
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AllTimeJeff
Great points. Allow me to make some observations.
I believe that the door to door ministry is not the way to make the most converts, but it is the easiest way to control the 2 variables that the GB can least control, who preaches, and who accepts.
Imagine if blogs were allowed. Then the message is out of the control of the GB. If it were on TV, then it actually exposes the JW dogma to too many people. When "new/social" media came out, the GB was wisely slow for their own interests in adopting it, because it would change the flow of information from a trickle to a fire hose level.
Terry, one thing your essay here brings to mind as you have alluded to, is that JW's cannot grow as fast as they did before 1975. It is almost impossible to replicate those circumstances. In fact, I would suggest that the information age has made it imperative for the surivival of JW's to slow down information as opposed to getting your dogma out more quicly. (which of course, flies in the face of the "urgency" of the JW message)
Clearly, the door to door method is the easiest way to continue to allow JW's to select those that show interest and to make sure that they are properly indoctrinated first. Screened as it were.
If someone responded to a TV show and went to a KH based on the typical initial message of JW's (i.e. Hey, how does paradise sound to you?) and then spent time and found out that no such paradise exists, then more people at the same time would point the same finger at the same problems of JW's.
But if one lonely soul thinks it sounds good, agrees to a study, an in a month, comes to the correct conclusion that JW's are kooks, then they simply stop going. No one else to complain to, after all, you let them in your own home, and stopped them from coming after a while.
It is all damage control.
I don't think that as it is now was part of the plan, it has clearly evolved in this. But the GB since Knorr and esp since 1975 have been slooooooow to adopt anything that would in real terms, speed up the preaching work.
If speeding up the preaching work = losing control of the work, then the GB will obviously want no part of it.
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Baby Murdered Because He Did Not Say Amen
by sammielee24 inhow sad.
baby 'starved to death' because he did not say amensydney morning herald.
(left) ria ramkissoon and her son javon thompson, (top right) queen antoinette and (bottom right) trevia williams.
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AllTimeJeff
Just consider what led up to this. This is something I think that those who were born into the JW cult can probably relate to.
Remember, really until you hit your pre-teens, teens, you can be unhappy, and not understand why on much of anything that your parents do or want you to do, but you damn well are going to do it. So if your parent(s) say "Put the tract in the door, praise be to Jah", it will absolutely affect you. Then you hear about how important tracts are (I remember a CO once stressing that this is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society), and before you know it, you are trained to think that tracts please our god, the true god, Jehovah.
As you get older, you either rebel, or you accept, or you rebel then accept. But ultimately, you accept it. You are trained to see things not as they are, but how the GB wants you to see them. Tracts are important. Watchtowers are somehow almost superstitiously important. (ever try to throw one away as a JW? Hard to do wasn't it?)
I bring this up because this whole tragedy is based on what a woman was tragically raised to believe from youth. Were she born in the USA, she would be raised as a Christian very likely. Saudi Arabia? Muslim. Japan? Shinto....
But this was how she was raised to believe, think, and act. Does this excuse her? Perhaps not. But what would you do if you were raised from birth with these beliefs, and that this is how you handle a baby who doesn't say amen?
There are 7 billion people on this planet. Everyone alive, conscious, wants to live and be happy, just like you and I do. They have inherited beliefs, and due to a lack of exposure to the real world, real life, it results in this tragedy.
I hope no one who reads about this is naive enough to think that this doesn't happen around the world all the time. Life is cheap at times.
I use the word "pragmatic" a lot in how I view the world since I left JW's To me, it simply means to not necessarily accept the world as it is, but to accept that the world is not how you wish it could be.
For that matter, the mother of the dead baby I am sure will wish the world is different, but at some point, she will learn the hard way that the world is at it is, not how we wish it could be.
This is an illustration of the dangers of superstitious religion. Defenders of theism will say "I wouldn't do that, my religion would never do such barbaric things..."
If you were raised as this mother, totally indoctrinated and insulated from the real world, can you be so sure?
To me, this is sobering. I personally use it to think about using our unique place in the world. You can't help the ignorant who have been taught to view the world as it is not. But if we know the world as it is, we can influence our world around us, while learning the sobering lessons that this sad story teaches.
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You were almost destroyed in 1983 but this man saved your life!!
by Terry inthe man who saved the world:.
you almost died in 1983.. do you remember what you were doing on sunday afternoon, sept. 25, of that year?.
but you came within a whisker of dying that day.
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AllTimeJeff
Wow. Wow!
May men of good will not wait for god to show us the way, but instead, act as a loving benevolent god might.
And since god continues to let us play Domino's with nuclear weapons, that is all that is between us and destruction.
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Taking Oneself Too Seriously
by minimus insometimes i get a kick out of how we might tend take ourselves a bit too seriously..
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Liberals, Atheists Just Plain Smarter - Religious Conservatives Really Just Paranoid Cavemen
by daniel-p inlet the flame wars begin!
liberalism, atheism, male sexual exclusivity linked to iq.
by elizabeth landau, cnnfebruary 26, 2010 5:03 p.m. est(cnn) -- political, religious and sexual behaviors may be reflections of intelligence, a new study finds.. evolutionary psychologist satoshi kanazawa at the the london school of economics and political science correlated data on these behaviors with iq from a large national u.s. sample and found that, on average, people who identified as liberal and atheist had higher iqs.
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