AllTimeJeff

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Posts by AllTimeJeff

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  41

  The Significance of Raymond Victor Franz

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the significance of raymond franz.

  in the light of the passing of raymond franz this week, it is clear from the reaction that many were affected by the deeds of this man.

  while he was called gentle by those who knew him (for the record, i never got to meet him personally) his reputation preceded him both in the ex jehovah's witness community, and still to this day at the world headquarters of jehovah's witnesses.. while his writings were indeed fair and reasonable, (i challenge anyone to read his books and find bitterness associated with him toward his former peers) i think it would be a mistake to remember ray franz as somewhat of a gentle, doting old man.

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  AllTimeJeff

  Believingxjw, thank you for sharing your point of view.
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  110

  Lakers or Celtics?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it's tied, 1 to 1. i'm with the green team over lala boys.

  my prediction it'll be celtics in best out of 7..

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  AllTimeJeff

  Lakers. I can't stand the Leprechaun fart machines.
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  41

  The Significance of Raymond Victor Franz

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the significance of raymond franz.

  in the light of the passing of raymond franz this week, it is clear from the reaction that many were affected by the deeds of this man.

  while he was called gentle by those who knew him (for the record, i never got to meet him personally) his reputation preceded him both in the ex jehovah's witness community, and still to this day at the world headquarters of jehovah's witnesses.. while his writings were indeed fair and reasonable, (i challenge anyone to read his books and find bitterness associated with him toward his former peers) i think it would be a mistake to remember ray franz as somewhat of a gentle, doting old man.

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  AllTimeJeff

  I just wanted to comment on believingxjw and others who pointed out that Ray Franz was forced to resign, implying that he did not do so over principle.

  My blog, as well as my impressions of CoC and the events described, are totally my own, independent of Randy Watters or anyone associated at Freeminds.

  Clearly, Ray himself was at a crossroads, conflicted as to trying to see if effective change could be done from within. What stuck out to me as I read CoC was that Ray was planning on leaving, he took a leave of absence to make arrangements do so, and I interpret that to mean that his intentions were to resign his position on the Governing Body over principle.

  The fact is that he did resign, even though it came quicker then he had planned.

  It isn't my intention to argue over other people's impressions. The fact that Al Schroeder and Lloyd Barry among others had Ray Franz in the crosshairs since at least 1979 and effectively got him while he wasn't there, building a case before Franz knew what hit him doesn't change in my mind what he was preparing to do.

  Anyone can read CoC and make up their own minds about that. I regret that my impressions of CoC have been interpreted by some as they have. In the end, as others have noted, it doesn't matter nor does it change the good work that Franz did, which is the most important thing.

  For those who feel otherwise, I extend my apologies.
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  41

  The Significance of Raymond Victor Franz

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the significance of raymond franz.

  in the light of the passing of raymond franz this week, it is clear from the reaction that many were affected by the deeds of this man.

  while he was called gentle by those who knew him (for the record, i never got to meet him personally) his reputation preceded him both in the ex jehovah's witness community, and still to this day at the world headquarters of jehovah's witnesses.. while his writings were indeed fair and reasonable, (i challenge anyone to read his books and find bitterness associated with him toward his former peers) i think it would be a mistake to remember ray franz as somewhat of a gentle, doting old man.

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  AllTimeJeff

  Duly noted.
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  41

  The Significance of Raymond Victor Franz

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the significance of raymond franz.

  in the light of the passing of raymond franz this week, it is clear from the reaction that many were affected by the deeds of this man.

  while he was called gentle by those who knew him (for the record, i never got to meet him personally) his reputation preceded him both in the ex jehovah's witness community, and still to this day at the world headquarters of jehovah's witnesses.. while his writings were indeed fair and reasonable, (i challenge anyone to read his books and find bitterness associated with him toward his former peers) i think it would be a mistake to remember ray franz as somewhat of a gentle, doting old man.

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  AllTimeJeff

  Lets just clarify a couple of things.

  Is anyone denying that Ray Franz resigned?

  Is anyone denying that Ray Franz had already made up his mind to leave and was in fact, getting ready to do just that while the GB tried to disfellowship him in a witch hunt?

  Was his leaving the Governing Body done over principle?

  Discuss.
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  41

  The Significance of Raymond Victor Franz

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the significance of raymond franz.

  in the light of the passing of raymond franz this week, it is clear from the reaction that many were affected by the deeds of this man.

  while he was called gentle by those who knew him (for the record, i never got to meet him personally) his reputation preceded him both in the ex jehovah's witness community, and still to this day at the world headquarters of jehovah's witnesses.. while his writings were indeed fair and reasonable, (i challenge anyone to read his books and find bitterness associated with him toward his former peers) i think it would be a mistake to remember ray franz as somewhat of a gentle, doting old man.

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  AllTimeJeff

  believingxjw

  Huh? I allowed you your say and gave you mine. No harm, no foul, no shepherding calls, judicial committees, or announcements from the platform. You haven't changed anything, but you have had your say. Are you good with that?

  You also need to adjust your telemetry for sarcasm.

  Other then that, you hit it right on the head again. Keep up the good work!
• 
  41

  The Significance of Raymond Victor Franz

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the significance of raymond franz.

  in the light of the passing of raymond franz this week, it is clear from the reaction that many were affected by the deeds of this man.

  while he was called gentle by those who knew him (for the record, i never got to meet him personally) his reputation preceded him both in the ex jehovah's witness community, and still to this day at the world headquarters of jehovah's witnesses.. while his writings were indeed fair and reasonable, (i challenge anyone to read his books and find bitterness associated with him toward his former peers) i think it would be a mistake to remember ray franz as somewhat of a gentle, doting old man.

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  AllTimeJeff

  First of all, he was asked to resign. Secondly, earlier in the book, and as verified by those around him back then, Ray had made it known that he was looking to leave. As you may recall, he was in Alabama when he was called back to the GB witch hunt.

  I welcome your attempted technicality. However, he was preparing to leave on his terms, over the principles that the book Crisis of Conscience was written over.

  The fact that he was forced to resign doesn't change that 1) He did resign and 2) It was over principle.

  Why do you think he took a leave of absence to Alabama and was called back? Because he was getting ready to resign, over principle. He was called back due to the witch hunt.

  And to be clear, I didn't say he resigned as a JW, but as a member of the GB.

  While this is an internet forum, and thus you can say what you feel, which I respect your right to do, I have to tell you in the same spirit that I don't appreciate what I perceive as an attempt to discredit what I wrote, which was 100% true and honest. In my opinion, you were/are looking to manufacture a controversy where none exists.

  Other then that, you hit it right on the head.
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  29

  Am I the only one who thought the GB was 100% correct when they were a JW?

  by NiceDream in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a few months ago i began researching my doubts on the internet about the wtbts and i came across a bunch of crazy facts.

  this helped me realize this isn't "the truth.".

  when i was growing up, i believed the society was always right, and we needed to obey what was in the publications.

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  AllTimeJeff

  I thought they walked on water until my brother passed away. It was then that slowly but surely, I started to think for myself.
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  41

  The Significance of Raymond Victor Franz

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the significance of raymond franz.

  in the light of the passing of raymond franz this week, it is clear from the reaction that many were affected by the deeds of this man.

  while he was called gentle by those who knew him (for the record, i never got to meet him personally) his reputation preceded him both in the ex jehovah's witness community, and still to this day at the world headquarters of jehovah's witnesses.. while his writings were indeed fair and reasonable, (i challenge anyone to read his books and find bitterness associated with him toward his former peers) i think it would be a mistake to remember ray franz as somewhat of a gentle, doting old man.

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  AllTimeJeff

  Some have commented on the unique intersection of circumstances that led to Franz's leaving and the subsequent publication of Crisis of Conscience.

  To wit: Franz had disagreed for sometime with the lack of use or even interest in what the bible said, esp if it contradicted traditional WT teachings. Also remember that in 1976, the committee format took hold. From Russell through 1975, one man was essentially in charge. It is clear to me that since 1976, the Governing Body took itself (too) seriously on the enforcement of their authority. This crystalized when Franz became an issue to them.

  Not satisfied with merely kicking him off the body, they were convinced that he needed to go. Period. What an utter lack of imagination the GB showed, and how much they underestimated him. If they had handled him more respectfully, there is a possibility that CoC would never have been published, or perhaps if it were, would have had a much different tone. Instead, the GB insisted on their authority, that it trumped all else.

  Franz knew and saw the goofiness, and how they played fast and loose with chronology and prophecy. He knew of the cynicism from which came their arrogance about changing those dates, or (heaven forbid) admit they were wrong.

  But without an authoratative viewpoint, and eyewitness insider, much of this would have stayed below the surface like a festering wound that was painful but barely noticeable.

  Most of all, CoC reveals to me the fundamental tactical weakness of the Governing Body as a whole: They really do believe their own bullshit. They know they are wrong about the prophecies. They even express those doubts. Yet, they still really do think that Jehovah and Jesus use them, that they are one of 144,000 Christians who have lived since the first century who will rule with Christ in heaven. Having gone to Gilead, I can tell you that the GB still suffers from the same delusions today.

  They really believe that Jehovah uses them, that the GB really is special. It is the only way they can justify their own power while at the same time knowing that they don't get anything right on the ol chronology/prophecy front. And of course, from their point of view, it is for the good of the flock that this is generally kept from them, to make sure that more "positive" things are kept to the fore.

  It could stumble a lot of JW's to know about the dates, the UN collusion, et al.

  And without Ray Franz, little of this would be known, and perhaps many of us would still be a frustrated JW not knowing how to put 2+2 together on the cult.

  Randy, you didn't have to be his friend to be an ally for the same thing, that of real, honest truth.
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  41

  The Significance of Raymond Victor Franz

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the significance of raymond franz.

  in the light of the passing of raymond franz this week, it is clear from the reaction that many were affected by the deeds of this man.

  while he was called gentle by those who knew him (for the record, i never got to meet him personally) his reputation preceded him both in the ex jehovah's witness community, and still to this day at the world headquarters of jehovah's witnesses.. while his writings were indeed fair and reasonable, (i challenge anyone to read his books and find bitterness associated with him toward his former peers) i think it would be a mistake to remember ray franz as somewhat of a gentle, doting old man.

  1. 
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  3. 
• 

  AllTimeJeff

  The Significance of Raymond Franz

  In the light of the passing of Raymond Franz this week, it is clear from the reaction that many were affected by the deeds of this man. While he was called gentle by those who knew him (for the record, I never got to meet him personally) his reputation preceded him both in the ex Jehovah's Witness community, and still to this day at the World Headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  While his writings were indeed fair and reasonable, (I challenge anyone to read his books and find bitterness associated with him toward his former peers) I think it would be a mistake to remember Ray Franz as somewhat of a gentle, doting old man. Mr Franz was a man of dynamic action.

  Consider his life. This was a man with the conviction to live in 3rd world countries as a missionary after WWII to preach what he thought to be the truth. This was a man who lived in remote areas, visited and taught strangers, all because of the deep conviction that he had. He spent his entire life through his 50's living below the poverty level, volunteering like many Jehovah's Witnesses do to preach.

  It was this same conviction that allowed him to be a leader within Jehovah's Witnesses, to accept a role as a member of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. It was also this same conviction and dynamism that motivated him to follow his conscience when he saw the troubling activities and conduct of the Governing Body during the 1970's.

  Why would a man in his 50's resign his leadership position (though not leave the religion)? It was over principle. It was over what was right. When he resigned in 1980, up to the time he was disfellowshipped in 1981 for having a meal with a former Jehovah's Witness, Franz continued to to see the conduct of the Governing Body, and how it hurt people.

  It was with a desire to help people along with his conviction and courage that motivated this man of action to write what would be the book that would define him, (Crisis of Conscience), expose the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, and ultimately help tens of thousands of people negotiate their troubled relationship with a troubled cult.

  Anyone who is familiar with Jehovah's Witnesses knows that they view any dissenting opinion, any self expression, any expression of autonomy as on par with the activities of Satan himself. The Governing Body knows best of all their checkered past, their failed attempts at prophecy, their morphed dogma, all of which destroys their own claim that Jesus invisibly chose them in 1919, even though Jehovah's Witnesses believe practically nothing that they once believed back in that year.

  Ray Franz knew all of this. He knew he had an obligation to report what he saw.

  The two books that Franz wrote, Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom, are not light and easy reads. It is doubtful that unless one is familiar with the whole Jehovah's Witness hierarchy and activities that they would mean a whole lot to you.

  But to those who for decades had to live with doubts based on the changing doctrine and lies of the Governing Body, who had to put up with elders who were trained to treat their flocks with kindness only if they put up good numbers in the door knocking activity of Jehovah's Witnesses, who struggled with the cruelty of disfellowshipping, the inconsistency of the Witness blood doctrine, the unwelcome intrusion into the bedroom of married Witnesses, Ray Franz literally saved their life.

  When I was a Regular Pioneer, we used to say that we were looking for the most zealous person to convert. If they were a super zealous Catholic for example, there was no doubt they would make a super zealous Jehovah's Witness.

  The Governing Body missed on Ray Franz. They forgot to look at his past and see that this might have been a gentle and meek man on the outside, but inside, was a most zealous, courageous, and honest man.

  Like most of us, Ray Franz did what he thought was best at the time. It is difficult to accept the truth if it differs from how one was raised to view certain matters. At one time, Ray Franz was one of the most zealous Jehovah's Witnesses ever. He thought it was the truth©. When he learned otherwise, and the damage that this caused, his zeal turned, not against Jehovah's Witnesses, but toward a simple discussion of the facts, of what was true, to help others see for themselves the facts, the truth about the truth.

  Ray Franz was always about the truth. It was never about the truth© that Jehovah's Witnesses speak of. It was about honesty.

  In the end, Raymond Victor Franz was not just a man of deep thought, but of deep action and conviction. His latter years bear eloquent testimony to the good that an honest, thoughtful person of conviction can do, if they will just do it.