Posts by AllTimeJeff

19

How do you solve a problem like....um...JESUS' IDENTITY?

by Terry in

in the musical the sound of music, a convent of nuns sings a song about how indefinable a character maria is and the problems she causes their order.. first they describe the things she does which leads to the problems she causes:.

i met a man who wasnt there.

a little man who wasnt there.

AllTimeJeff

I might have to join in on this one....

95

Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

by AllTimeJeff in

this isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.

because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.

awesome!

AllTimeJeff

As an aside, I think it interesting that strong Trinitarians and the leadership of JW's have one thing in common when arguing for their particular theology; they will not honestly join in any conversation in which they do not control the questions.

Sulla, JW's as you may or may not know won't discuss certain aspects of their theology until a person is sufficiently indoctrinated and accepting of other basic teachings first.

It has been my experience that some (not all) Trinitarians are similar.

You state that there are better intellectual arguments. I am sure there are.

You put it on me to find them? No, that isn't a fair premise. You are the believer. Defend your faith!

I am a non believer, willing to believe what the evidence shows. If as a sincere non believer, I call you out, it is your choice to either be condescending, or you can actually engage in a conversation. Whatever. My life goes on. Your arrogance will too.

But as my first statement in this thread suggests, these debates go no where.

Regardless of how superior your view of the Trinity may be, it is still just words. Just a concept.

There still is no Triune god around, outside of the concept you have of the Trinity in your head.

Cheers!

95

Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

by AllTimeJeff in

this isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.

because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.

awesome!

AllTimeJeff

Well, I guess I care enough to respond to Sulla.... :-p

While I certainly sympathize with those poor souls who drank so deeply of JW theology that they actually agreed to be missionaries for the cause, and understand striking a pose against Christian orthodoxy as a self-potecting act, I have to point out that AllTimeJeff has spectacularly missed the point.

Your spectacularly condescending attempt at empathy is duly noted.

For example, while I cleary said that the hoary metaphor likening the Trinity to water was empty, Jeff can't be bothered to grasp that and clearly prefers listening to himself point out how weak the metaphor is. Or, I point out that the question depends on whether we can suppose nature and person are really separable concepts and Jeff gets all geeked out by the idea that, in humans, they are not.

It does me good for you to realize how weak the metaphor is. I also appreciate how in this statement you refer to the Trinity correctly as a concept, and not as it is claimed to be, god.

Finally, Jeff swings for the fences and, no doubt typing with authority, insists that the Trinity is too, illogical!

While I wouldn't say that there is no such thing as a poor argument for the Trinity, or suggest that some dumb people believe it, I think we can see an interesting inversion of the original post in Jeff's follow-ups. Fact it, Jeff really doesn't know what he is talking about, but is happy in his ignorance to mock the worst arguments of the other side and to congratulate himself on his sophistication. In this, there isn't a bit of difference between Jeff now and Gilead Jeff: both were willing to attack the orthodox Christian belief without bothering to understand it.

I certainly wouldn't say that there is such thing as a good argument for the Trinity. And for the record, perfectly sensible, nice intelligent people, sprinkled with a dash of intellectual "I'm holding my ears", believe in the Trinity. I for one would bet you are a fine and decent person. I will certainly start with that premise.

I realize I mock the worst arguments of the Trinity. I would also be happy to mock the best arguments of the Trinity. Regardless of which arguments you rate as strong or weak, they are only words for a concept of a god that the majority of the people on this planet have barely heard of, let alone have experienced in proveable, tangible ways.

It's a shame that the Christian god, whether Triune or monotheistic, is limited to the strong or weak arguments of the person who is arguing for the existence of their god. It is a shame that your Triune god must rely on you for strong arguments Sulla, and others for weak arguments. But I bet your Triune god loves you more for how stunningly awesome you do at explaining the Trinity better then other Trinitarians.

Your god is the Trinity. You condescendingly state that we are only poo pooing the bad arguements. So there must be some better, more clear ones that exist? Let me know!

In this way, poor Jeff has failed to progress since leaving the JWs. He is, in his heart and mind, really still a dumb JW: triumphant in his ignorance, sure of his intellectual superiority, completely uninterested in the facts. It's no wonder he was such a great JW, hell, he still is!

I laugh. Seriously, you remind me of superior acting Trinitarians who though comfortable in their arrogance, forget that the teachings of Jesus are more important then the concept of who he is.

If you worship Jesus, whether as part of a Trinity or not, I am pretty sure he doesn't appreciate you acting like a superior, condescending, arrogant ass. Don't get too caught up in the concept, just be a good Christian. I am sure that Jesus will take care of the rest.

127

Why I Shouldn't Believe in the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth

by XJW4EVR in

when i was a jw, the key issue that caused me to doubt the wt was the trinity.

the wtb&ts's blatent misquotations and misrepresentations of religious scholarship to fit their anti-trinitarian presuppositions are horrid and inexcusable.

that issue, however, was not the issue that caused me to become a christian.

AllTimeJeff

It couldn't be as simple that a man called Jesus at one time walked the earth, started a movement, then died like all humans do, could it?

127

Why I Shouldn't Believe in the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth

by XJW4EVR in

when i was a jw, the key issue that caused me to doubt the wt was the trinity.

the wtb&ts's blatent misquotations and misrepresentations of religious scholarship to fit their anti-trinitarian presuppositions are horrid and inexcusable.

that issue, however, was not the issue that caused me to become a christian.

AllTimeJeff

XJW4EVR

Your question asking people who disagree with you to "prove that Jesus didn't get resurrected" upsets me. Not in the the psycho way, but it is disappointing.

First off, let me REPEAT that you have every right to believe that Jesus is alive right now, surfing on big cumulus clouds. (or answering prayers, or helping all the billions who are suffering right now, whatever) I have no issue with you on it.

What I take exception to is the framework of your question, and the way that you are going about this.

While being tounge in cheek, my statement earlier that being alive has to mean something is true.

What qualifies as being alive?

If Jesus was dead, but later resurrected, it means a whole helluva lot from a Christian perspective. Been there, done that.

The answer to your question directly is this.

The reason for there being no evidence against Jesus being resurrected, and no proof against it, is that there is no evidence or proof for it in the first place.

Most religions have a story/legend of a god who died but lives again. Argue against their legends while you are at it.

It is the height of arrogance for you to forget that there are over 7 billion people on this planet with their own views and ideas about god and how their god also lives again, yet you insist that your legend must be taken as seriously as actual live people? And you want billions of people to prove that the resurrection didn't happen? Get over yourself.

I think Jesus own words come into play here about the resurrection. "God is a god, not of the dead, but of the living." I think that is a good litmus test for gods too. There are way too many gods that their followers claim to be alive, but not one shred of evidence exists to back that they are alive.

95

Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

by AllTimeJeff in

this isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.

because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.

awesome!

AllTimeJeff

Geez, I realy don't care. The Trinity is as the same as all other gods that all other religions claim. They believe it and insist on it whilst I don't believe it because the only proof for it is the (in this case) Trinitarian apologist. To believe, I simply have to buy your argument. Your words without proof are just words.

But I really wish you well.

I like bacon too.

127

Why I Shouldn't Believe in the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth

by XJW4EVR in

when i was a jw, the key issue that caused me to doubt the wt was the trinity.

the wtb&ts's blatent misquotations and misrepresentations of religious scholarship to fit their anti-trinitarian presuppositions are horrid and inexcusable.

that issue, however, was not the issue that caused me to become a christian.

AllTimeJeff

When Gene Wilder said "It's Alive!" in Young Frankenstein, he wasn't being abstract.

Being alive has got to mean something.

If Jesus is alive, so is Santa, and every charecter in Lord of the Rings.

The issue as I see it isn't Jesus being alive. (is he? Where???) It is the intellectual honesty that insists upon arguing upon a matter where no evidence exists.

Thank god we no longer live in the 16th century, though clearly we still have 16 century level thinkers who are willing to believe (as is there right) and yet also insist that they are correct (which is another matter entirely)

127

Why I Shouldn't Believe in the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth

by XJW4EVR in

when i was a jw, the key issue that caused me to doubt the wt was the trinity.

the wtb&ts's blatent misquotations and misrepresentations of religious scholarship to fit their anti-trinitarian presuppositions are horrid and inexcusable.

that issue, however, was not the issue that caused me to become a christian.

AllTimeJeff

My question to atheists, agnostics & skeptics is simple. Why shouldn't I believe in the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth? I'm specifically asking about the resurrection. Please don't insult my intelligence and tell that Jesus did not exist, as no serious scholar, even the most liberal ones, do not believe this. Instead tell me why I should not believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

If the question is why you shouldn't believe in the resurrection of Jesus, please do not labor under the idea that you owe ANYONE an explanation.

I do believe that Jesus existed as a man.

Jesus is not alive today. I do not accept your testimony that he is alive. Nor do I accept the bible's account that he is alive.

Your challenge seems to be a sneaky way to try and debate a belief you clearly have no intent on honestly "putting on the table." I can only speak for myself, but since you want to debate the matter of Jesus being alive, I cannot engage in this debate, as I doubt, not so much Jesus being alive, but your intellectual honesty in the matter. Why would I debate with a person who simply won't admit "I can't prove to you with evidence that Jesus is alive right now"

I am alive. I am in Flippers picture thread a few times. Got any pictures of Jesus?

My point is, you won't consider contrary evidence, so why should I consider the bible (again) for the 20th time?

Anyway, tangent. Sorry.

Believe that Jesus is alive. Tell him I said hello.....

95

Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

by AllTimeJeff in

this isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.

because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.

awesome!

AllTimeJeff

Having given my opinion, arguing it doesn't matter. A trintarian will always "see" ways to believe. I honestly don't care anymore. I am just amused that so many still do.

95

Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

by AllTimeJeff in

this isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.

because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.

awesome!

AllTimeJeff

This is for Sulla. (it is sort of funny how a statement can be turned into a revealing look at ourselves)

AllTimeJeff confuses the observation that the Trinity is a mystery with the idea that it is illogical and then sweeps everything up with the simpleminded mathematical observation that three is not equal to one. Honestly, the temptation is to use the equally empty comparison of water to the Trinity (liquid, solid, gas, yet still h2o!) in reply. Let's take a step back.

It is only logical if the mystery was written by Arthur Conan Doyle, not "The Apostle John". I didh't attack the trinity, I actually commented how useless it is to talk about it.

I didn't say the Trinity was illogical. I mean, we have evidence of PEOPLE everywhere who are three in one. Totally proves your point. Also, H2O! Totally logical. I bow to that. It totally proves that if water is liquid, solid, and gas as observable lifeless, and brainless phenomenon, it stand to reason that almighty god, the father, son and holy spirit can be the same way. Thank the Father for water! (or the Son... whatever...)

That said, there is quite a lot of theological reflection on the meaning of the Trinity, focusing in various ways on, for example, a person and a nature might not be the same thing. It's all interesting and difficult, of course, and not the sort of thing that lends itself to online debate easily.

Of course. On that we agree. It is interesting and difficult, but not at all enlightening when beliefs are challenged....

So, the idea that debates on the Trinity are pointless because those who accept the Trinity are illogical is really nothing more than self-flattery. Mental masturbation, I guess.

Wow, do you have camera's in my computer room??? How did you know?

Uh, say what you want, the Trinity is illogical, nor proveable because H2O has three phases and yet is still water. Nevertheless, have fun believing in it if you want.

And it is illogical. To say it isn't is to demean the human experience, and I for one am tired of theories of god trampling down on what we poor creations of god actually get to see.

Now if you will excuse me, I have to find out if all the kings horses and all the kings men put Humpty Dumpty together again.