Posts by AllTimeJeff

4

Spreading the truth about WBTS in a 3rd-world continent.

by african GB Member in

jw
friends

as you would all know, the org is growing rapidly in uncivilised parts of the world.

this is mainly due to the fact that they don't get to find out the truth about the org.. is there another way of getting people to know, besides the internet?

bearing in mind that more than 90% of 3rd world folks don't have access..

AllTimeJeff

I lived in Cameroon. Where do you live?

95

Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

by AllTimeJeff in

this isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.

because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.

awesome!

AllTimeJeff

Sorry to bring this turd of a thread back, but I realized something as I re-read the posts here, especially my wonderful give and take with Sulla, the awesome Trinitarian.

First of all, Sulla is right, I brought up a thread about how dumb it is to argue the Trinity, then I go ahead and argue about it. Think of me what you will for that.

But in the past, esp since I have left JW's, I have done my best to be "fair" toward differing viewpoints. In speaking to this, I can say that while I (obviously) do not believe in anything having to do with the Trinity (for non-theological reasons, thanks for asking), I don't begrudge anyone for believing it.

My argument with Sulla was two seperate arguments. Sulla (it seems) was not arguing on my "turf", which is the reasonableness of worshiping Jesus either monotheistically or in a triune method. I don't care about that. To me, Jesus was just a man at best.

Trinitarians and monotheistic Christians need to play in their own field when I am not there. It's a game of ping pong that I am not invited too. I feel that Sulla was trying to say that there are superior Trinitarian arguments out there, and to many JW's who only know the Trinity from that damn brochure, that is true. JW's DO NOT represent the Trinity honestly, so that is a fair argument and discussion to have. I just can't play.

Sulla can't play on my turf though. That is to say, it is my belief that Jesus isn't a god at all, no matter what theological tack you take.

Fair enough?

My other point is, I don't apologize for not liking Sulla's style. I am tired of pretending that I agree with and like everybody, and that I have to find common ground . I don't.

I can acknowledge your belief, but I can think it is what it is, which is stupid. You could tell me that you raised Sasquatch and that you have a superior argument, should I believe you because you have a strong belief?

Thought so.

I wish Sulla would kiss Shamus or something.

Having said that, yeah, I argued the Trinity in a thread I created about how stupid it is to argue the Trinity. Thanks for noticing. ;)

42

R.I.P George

by fade_away in

jw
friends

if it wasn't an extremely late (or extremely early) april fools joke, our friend no room for george seems to have departed......from this website.

apparently falling victim to a devastating love bomb that claimed his ability of thinking for himself and his freedom of heart, mind, body and soul.

i was wondering if maybe in the future he will be on the convention stage in front of a couple thousand people talking about his "experience".

AllTimeJeff

There is nothing wrong in assuming honesty in someone, generally speaking.

If you don't feel or see that, than that's cool.

42

R.I.P George

by fade_away in

jw
friends

if it wasn't an extremely late (or extremely early) april fools joke, our friend no room for george seems to have departed......from this website.

apparently falling victim to a devastating love bomb that claimed his ability of thinking for himself and his freedom of heart, mind, body and soul.

i was wondering if maybe in the future he will be on the convention stage in front of a couple thousand people talking about his "experience".

AllTimeJeff

It's a tough road out, but there is something about the brain that will never forget.....

He may very well stay a JW.... I myself had a helluva time to be honest with myself for years before I finally decided to blow up the bridge.

He is/was an elder. He saw us all here. Talked a lot about chicks. Don't worry, he'll be fine. He just needs time to figure things out.

May I suggest if you are still reading here George, do it for yourself. It's ok to be honest, even if it is actually the selfish thing to do.

20

1975 WAS a Big Deal!

by AllTimeJeff in

as we all know well, jehovah's witnesses taught from the mid '60s that the world would end until 1975. as we all know it is also now 2011. nuff said.. but 1975 had a lot of big things happen..... wheel of fortune first went on the air.. major watergate figures were convicted and went to jail.. the pittsburgh steelers won their first super bowl.

charlie chaplin is knighted by elizabeth ii.

bill gates founded microsoft.

AllTimeJeff

As we all know well, Jehovah's Witnesses taught from the mid '60s that the world would end until 1975. As we all know it is also now 2011. Nuff said.

But 1975 had a lot of big things happen....

Wheel of Fortune first went on the air.

Major Watergate figures were convicted and went to jail.

The Pittsburgh Steelers won their first Super Bowl

Charlie Chaplin is knighted by Elizabeth II

Bill Gates founded Microsoft. (that DID change the world eventually)

Saturday Night Live first goes on the air

I got all of the above from Wikipedia. I thought the final entries of that article would be interesting, so I have copied and pasted it for your viewing pleasure. (as it turn out, 1975 was sort of a boring year... it was however the first full year I spent on this earth! Glad I don't remember this boring shit.... ;p )

Date unknown

The government of Colombia announces the finding of Ciudad Perdida.
The Spanish army quits Spanish (Western) Sahara, the last remnant of Spain's Empire. The Sahrawi Republic (RASD) is created. Moroccoinvades ex-Spanish Western Sahara.
The term fractal is first used.
Lyme disease first recognised at Lyme, Connecticut.
Victoria (Australia) abolishes capital punishment.
South Australia becomes the first Australian state to decriminalize homosexual acts between consenting adults.
Some members of Jehovah's Witnesses, based on the group's chronology, [ 3 ] believe that Armageddon will happen in 1975 and a few of them sell their houses and businesses to prepare for the new world paradise which they believe will exist when Jesus sets up God's Kingdom on earth.
Peter Gabriel departs Genesis, and is replaced on lead vocals by drummer Phil Collins.
In addition, but unrelated, the first Monster Truck Bigfoot was created by Bob Chandler

21

Here's What We Know About Jehovah's Witnesses

by AllTimeJeff in

the condensed history set, to the music of the william tell overture.... some guy in the mid to late 19th century named c t russell felt spiritually disenchanted.

didn't believe in hell and other traditional christian beliefs that he grew up around.

so he read a lot, and got exposed to a lot of ideas.

AllTimeJeff

The condensed history set, to the music of the William Tell Overture...

Some guy in the mid to late 19th century named C T Russell felt spiritually disenchanted. Didn't believe in hell and other traditional Christian beliefs that he grew up around. So he read a lot, and got exposed to a lot of ideas. Of all the idea's he read, the Adventism of his day made the biggest impression.

Luckily for him, he didn't have to join a church. He was rich and started another business, a publishing one, and called it a church. (of sorts) He started a magazine in 1879 that is known today as "The Watchtower". He had this crazy idea that the bible gave clues as to the advent of Jesus Christ. And he got a bunch of fellow disenchanted people along as buddies, and they started a club.

The years they picked that Jesus was supposed to come back went by. 1799. 1874. 1878. 1881. Well, that was too close together, so, 1914. They based this on the bible of course, which directly mentions those years. (not)

In between 1881 and 1914, JW's (who were then just referred to as bible students, thus later insulting real bible students everywhere) grew. C T Russell gathered to him during this time trusted men to whom lead this group after he died.

Oh yeah, 1914. Well, nothing happened, except that WWI broke out. The Great War as it was then known. This wasn't exactly what was advertised. This was just the latest in a series of embarrassing attempts at prophecies that this group got wrong.

Still waiting for the first one they got right here in 2011, but I digress....

Russell died in 1916. Jesus didn't come at all. And in his death, he left a business, a corporation called the WTBTS of PA, that held property and a rather large cash flow. Fortunately, Russell left this in the control of a bunch of Christians who in no way would seek to exploit this for power, money, and personal gratification.

Except for a rather cagey lawyer named J F Rutherford.

Now don't get me wrong. Russell WAS sincere, and he was also bat shit crazy. Just read what he believed and wrote and compare that with what is taught by JW's today. Almost nothing is the same.

Rutherford didn't care about anything except himself. Viewing himself as Christs man, he totally went against Russells will thanks to his knowledge of the law (damn lawyers) and got control in 1918. Over time, he was able to consolidate power from the editorial board Russell wanted into the position of the President of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

In short order, he realized that to grow the business, he had to marginalize Russell and explain 1914. Taking advantage of the coincidence of WWI starting in 1914, he merely changed and tweaked the claims of 1914 and said that they GOT IT RIGHT! It's just that Jesus came INVISIBLY! Trust us. You need eyes of faith, but trust us. (you already invested this much in us, so we are betting you still want to be right)

Rutherford as history now shows was a total dick. A lying, philandering, alcoholic lawyer who was also a hypocrite. But what he was good at was running a business. He also made two very important hires, who would become close buddies.

One was named Fred Franz, a native of Covington Kentucky. He went to college, by all accounts was pretty smart, and pretty weird. He got to Bethel in the 1920's where his talent as a Rhodes scholar dropout went into full effect. He would one day be able to take his knowledge of biblical Greek and Hebrew, (which was acquired through Rosetta Stone) and translate the most important book in the world, "God's Word", the Bible into a translation that lied and thus supported the lying doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses, many of which he would personally invent straight out of thin air.

Because Rutherford could barely speak English due to his many hangovers, he trusted Freddie Franz. A lot.

The other new hire who came to Bethel was a man named Nathan Knorr. He came from a Puritan background, which taught him among many things that sex was gross! However, he was there to work, and had a lot of natural talents in organizing and business. Knorr and Franz spent a lot of time together, particularly in the 1930's, watching Rutherford act like a drunken bafoon.

Rutherford wrote against prohibition and smuggled liquor into Bethel throughout that time. He bought a mansion in San Diego and WROTE IN THE WATCHTOWER that this was for the time when David, Abraham, Noah, and other men of old would stay when they were resurrected. (never realizing that if they DID come back in the 20th century, a nice little apartment would blow them away). No, it couldn't have been that he just wanted to live in a mansion in Southern California, could it?

He also insisted on having his followers drive through quiet neighborhoods with sound cars full of his speeches, where he got to bellow that "RELIGION IS A SNARE AND A RACKET!" thus showing that irony was really lost on all JW's back then.

Oh, and he renamed the group Jehovah's Witnesses. His lasting legacy.

In time, he died, and Knorr was elected the next President. His focus was on growing a grass roots religion. He organized it (very well I might add) and depended on Freddie Franz to write most of the doctrinal articles. He had veto power of course, but little about the exegesis of JW's comes from Knorr, except the mysoginistic hatred of sex that is.

Thus, from the mid 40's through the mid 70's, a tag team was created. Knorr ran and grew the business, and Franz created the doctrine, with Knorr having veto power on what Freddie wrote.

Freddie Franz got to write a ton of stuff, like his very own bible (called the New World Translation) which is full of shit, esp the 237 occurrences of "Jehovah" in the New Testament. But hey, when you are the company oracle, you can pretty much do and write what you want.

Franz became a "typologist", which is a form of bible interpretation that views bible characters as types, or prophetic models of what was going on during "modern times". He tried to sell the idea that the bible was a book that was written for just 144,000 who would rule from heaven. The rest of the rank and file were along for the ride (and a shot at living forever in paradise on earth) would get really cool benefits, such as surviving the destruction of billions, if they would just do everything that Knorr and he said.... also, they had to offer the WT and other JW literature with the fervor of a life insurance salesman. He claimed that Noah, Abraham, Moses, Aaron, King Saul, David, Elijah, Elisha, and others are in the Bible first and foremost to prophetically point to the existence of JW's in the 20th century. Throughout the 1960's a series of mind numbingly boring WT studies in the Kingdom Halls were dedicated to indoctrinating this un-understandable bullshit into the nodding audiences that filled those buildings.

After a while, most shrugged, gave up, believed it, but gave up trying to understand it, because it was "too deep" for them. Which is what the leadership was sort of hoping for anyway.

Franz's biggest claim/faux pas that he started was in the book "Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God" (1966) It was here that he started the idea that 1975 would, well.... could be the time when Armageddon would come. So many JW's believed it that when nothing happened in 1975, they did what came naturally and blamed the people who believed them, then told them to continue believing them. While most were discouraged, most stayed around.

The other "shoot myself in the leg" moment of Franz came when he (correctly for once) read in the bible that there were groups of men, elders, who ran each local congregation. This started a movement that culminated in the creation of the Governing Body in 1972. Franz didn't want that. He wanted only local bodies of elders in local congregations, not one primary ruling body over the whole enchillada.

The GB started to realize that they liked power too, and by 1976 divied up the power that once lay totally in the President's hand into seperate committees of the GB. (notably, the Service and Writing depts, which have fought all the time throughout their existence internally). A lot of issues came as a result. Disenchanted by the naked politics and agenda's being displayed, Freddies nephew and fellow GB member Ray Franz, started to study the bible independently with others. When the GB heard about this, they got rid of him and all others who would dare go against the Governing Body, which of course, was 8 years old in 1980.

Franz wrote a book that was destined to explode 15 years later via the internet, Crisis of Conscience, which details what went on behind the scenes. When it was first written in 1983, apostates were never a real problem for JW's because the GB got to control the message, and there was no way to have easy access to information that showed them to be liars.

Thus, JW's enjoyed one more golden period in their existence, the 1980's. They grew, they bought, they built, they made $$$. All because they believed taught that the generation that saw 1914 would live to see the Great Tribulation/Armageddon.

Oops.

When they had to revise that in 1995 and say that the generation that saw 1914 would very likely die without seeing the Great Trib, the GB severely underestimated the role that the internet would play in halting the momentum of the 1980's. For the first time, former JW's who had seen this same shit before were able to point it out, put out articles, blogs, and form internet communities to discuss the fact that the leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses were cynical lyers. Suddenly, Crisis of Conscience needed 2nd and 3rd printings. Books like "Apocalypse Delayed" "Gentile Times Reconsidered" and other books that detailed the real history of JW's and their incorrect attempts at prophecy were in hot demand. All via the click of a mouse buttom on your computer.

Suddenly, anyone who used to be a JW could talk about their experiences. No longer censored, they could report that the culture of JW's promoted spiritual abuse, frequent mental and emotional abuse, and most horribly of all, child sexual abuse. Pedophillia. Since the 1990's, JW's typically claim new baptisms that number into the hundreds of thousands each year, while in some years, posting net gains in membership

The shine came off. It is now 2011. JW's are trying to hold on to a past that they claim shows they are the one true religion. In reality, that history shows a group of clumsy power mongers, having major delusions of grandeur, who have always run nothing more then a religious business.

Their history decidedly proves one thing if anything: JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ARE NOT THE ONE TRUE RELIGION. NEVER HAVE BEEN. NEVER WILL BE. THEY SIMPLY GOT IT ALL WRONG.

They have run out of dates, run out of prophecies, and are running out of time. Attempts by some groups or people to "take them down" haven't and won't work. Like other groups, they will either change (the one talent they really have) or just go away as the bullshit they carry around becomes to heavy to move.

Here's what we know about Jehovah's Witnesses; they have depended on one thing more then anything else, more then Jehovah, Jesus, 1914, or the Governing Body. They believe in their ability to change whenever they have to, counting on their flock's blind loyalty to follow.

Do they care if that makes them liars? You be the judge. As a group, they have morphed into their 132nd year of existence. That they have been around that long of course doesn't prove anything, except that sadly, there will always be a ready supply of fools and naive people who will listen, be swayed, and allow a group to tell them what and how to think.

2

There is no ONE Right Answer

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

one thing that has irritated me is the idea that it is "one way or the highway.

" on pretty much anything.. it's one thing to have your own view on things.

i do politically, religiously, sports, etc.

AllTimeJeff

One thing that has irritated me is the idea that it is "one way or the highway." On pretty much anything.

It's one thing to have your own view on things. I do politically, religiously, sports, etc. And it is understandable if you want to defend your beliefs. I do, and I respect others who do the same.

However, I believe very strongly that while I need to have my own point of view, my point of view is best for me alone. In addition, there is over 7 billion people in the world, over 300 million people in the USA. So it's not looking real good if I believe in personal autonomy to think that there is only a couple of options, when in reality, there are dozens of good ideas out there right now to help.

Why is there so much disagreement? Whether it's on this forum, or in our poliltics, it's not that people can't agree. It's that they won't agree.

It offends me to the hilt to have the fringe right politicians of today speak as if they are representing the majority. I get it that they may represent YOU. But to say that there is such a thing as "real Americans", that there is just one way to view current events and issues, or to say that those who disagree aren't real Americans, that is just plain bullshit.

The gridlock in our government today (the United States that is) results not from a lack of ideas, but from a desire to consolidate power.

Truthfully, if we are really all Americans, then we need leaders who want to unite. Instead, we don't have leaders. We have calculating politicians who read the current divides in our society today to see how they can exploit people's passions. Pragmatism, while needed more then ever, is hardly seen at all. And if you try to be pragmatic, then you are going to get run over pretty damn quick.

The answer to all of this is obvious: There is no one right answer. Politics that seek to exploit and marginalize minority communities (such as the nonsense issue over gay marriage) is designed to take advantage of prejudices. For the most part, I don't believe most college educated Republicans are prejudiced, nor personally give a damn whether gays and lesbians can have sex or get married. But instead of doing the right thing (leaving them alone) they whip up the passions of the ignorant.

Meanwhile, real issues are not dealt with responsibly. Today's politicians have totally miscalculated the winds of today. People are pissed off at all of them. I would say the resemble a kid throwing a tantrum in a sandbox, but I don't want to insult children.

The right has some great points. Smaller government in the sense of cutting spending is absolutely necesarry. DUH! There is a need to scale back and rethink entitlement programs (but not get rid of them) And of course, this is why gun rights and restricting the civil rights of gays and lesbians is so important... right?

The left is a little bit in la la land. As much as there are days that I wish we could be like some European socialist countries that insure health care and mandated month long vacations, the fact is that we won't ever be like that here. In addition, there are real social consequences to the remnants of the Great Society welfare system that are not addressed by current liberal policies. (I do think in 20 years that socialized health care is going to be viewed and appreciated a lot more than how it is viewed currently)

As a country, the United States still shows off that we are only a couple hundred years old. It's like we are going through puberty right now. It's stupid.

Maturity is in short supply right now. Honesty is in even less supply. The only answer is for both sides to finally "get it" that we are all in this together.

Sadly, the focus isn't on you and me, but on power and winning elections. And it is taking my country in the wrong direction. It isn't right or left, it's just plain wrong.

5

Circuit Overseers only serving for 1 year?

by doinmypart in

jw
friends

my wife has her co visit this week.

he has just been assigned to her congregation.

she mentioned he will only be with her congregation for 1 year.

AllTimeJeff

Doubt it very much....

95

Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

by AllTimeJeff in

this isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.

because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.

awesome!

AllTimeJeff

The reason you are a moron, ATJ, is that you begin with the premise that arguments about the Trinity are a waste of time and then turn around and insist that a guy who agrees with you make an argument about the Trinity.

Sulla, you got it wrong. I never said that, you took it that way.

Anyway, other than that, you rock!

"We're Trinitarian Witnesses! We speak out in fearlessness. Ours is the multi headed god of true PRAH Fe CEEEEEEE!!!!! What He/They fortell .... uh.... comes to THREE!!!!!!!"

95

Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

by AllTimeJeff in

this isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.

because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.

awesome!

AllTimeJeff

Right botchtower! You are right!

Let's keep it coming, make it about me, and not the argument that never got expressed. Keep it up!

Let me be clear. It was an attack on Sulla's argument FOR the Trinity.

I don't know Sulla and never said anything personal, other than to say that Sulla's argument uh.... stank.

Why are you defending Sulla? Do you believe in the Trinity too? Then I am sure my disagreement is not comfortable for you. So, sorry bout that.