Posts by AllTimeJeff

24

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses always answer questions through the bible?

by MarieChii in

hi.. recently i've been researching jehovah's witnesses and their beliefs and found out that they don't believe in blood transfusions.

so, i've asked one of my friends who is a jw as to what is the reason for this, and so far, they had always directed me to a bible verse that is in their bible.. clearly, i wasn't getting anywhere and so far, it's pretty much frustrating to even make my friend give me reasonable reason.

when i was getting somewhere, even a smidgen, they would answer with a question.

AllTimeJeff

@Mariechii

Apologies for my comments. This is your topic you started, so I will stay on topic...

I think you are on to something when you noted "When I was getting somewhere, even a smidgen, they would answer with a question. So you can get why I'm getting a little frustrated."

My comments are, don't look for logic where it doesn't exist, and don't use logic where it is not welcome or useful.

Most reasonable people know that JW's are just a little off. (ok, a lot off) JW's dodge questions when their initial answer isn't accepted. In other words, they are shallow. They are taught and trained to go two levels deep, if you will. Even when there are many more levels.

Elders are taught to give up at a certain point when talking to potential "apostates". They know that if the argument gets too deep, they'll be discredited. So there is a bit of a poison pill built into how far JW's will try to win. If you continue to go further and educate them, it is likely you will be rebuffed.

Sometimes, you can plant seeds of real truth (ironic, since that is what JW's claim they do all the time) but it takes a while. There is no immediate satisfaction in arguing or debating with a JW, because you are dealing with insidious indoctrination that frankly takes months or years to get over. Few ever do.

24

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses always answer questions through the bible?

by MarieChii in

hi.. recently i've been researching jehovah's witnesses and their beliefs and found out that they don't believe in blood transfusions.

so, i've asked one of my friends who is a jw as to what is the reason for this, and so far, they had always directed me to a bible verse that is in their bible.. clearly, i wasn't getting anywhere and so far, it's pretty much frustrating to even make my friend give me reasonable reason.

when i was getting somewhere, even a smidgen, they would answer with a question.

AllTimeJeff

An observation:

Academics vs non-academics on occasion will come to roughly the same conclusion in some matters. Such is the case with JW's.

JW's, and especially their ruling GB, must be judged against their current and historical claims.Both those who use to be JW's (or "disaffected members", likely those who are shunned for the simple act of disagreement I imagine) or "anti cult activists" (those who correctly point out the dead from those who weren't really able to take blood medicine and still keep an active status within JW's, or perhaps those who have been molested by cult leaders) often provide real time and real life experiences into what the day to day is like.

Though not scholarly, I would politely disagree with vienne's comment above about how "misleading" such source information is. While vienne is well within his rights to point out how outliers like "six screens of WT" will latch on to ANY story, regardless of veracity, to discredit JW's, most who leave and blog simply tell their story. Like a puzzle, piece them together, and most reasonable people will see a picture come together. That picture of course, is that JW's are a cult....

A scholarly study is just that. An examination of writings, dogma, and changes through the years. That too disproves JW/WT/GB teachings, unless you have been inoculated from these changes by buying into "new light" and all that goes with it.

My comments are motivated by vienne's closing statement: "Approaching the study of any religion though the work of disaffected members or anti cult activists will mislead you." This is as false as claiming that a study of the Nixon presidency via the claims of John Dean was void because he was once a member of the Nixon administration. Far from it, his first hand accounts laid bare the true nature of the beast. So it is with former JW's and the light they hold up against the former cult they belonged to and their ruling, idiotic, despotic, governing body.

133

What Is The Most Ridiculous Thing You Have Heard From A Witness?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i remember an elder questioning a woman who had admitted to giving and receiving oral sex from her unbelieving mate.

he asked her the most intimate questions which clearly flustered her.

interestingly, she “confessed “ to the elders because her conscience bothered her.

AllTimeJeff

My personal watershed moment will always be at Gilead when discussing the first chapters of 2Kings. Rutherford = Elijah and Knorr = Elisha. That was it for me. The bird flew in and out of the clock and I checked out right there.

30

What is CT Russell's motive?

by sinboi in

what is russell's motive when he started examining the bible with a group of bible students?

did he intend to form a cult and to mislead others?

.

AllTimeJeff

No.

He was was a rich man by inheritance who got caught up in the riptide of the 2nd great awakening, and sincerely added his voice and opinions on when Jesus was coming back during the 1860s and 1870s. Influenced heavily by Nelson Barbour, he came up with his own theology and thoughts on when Jesus would return (1914!) and started a magazine called The Watchtower. He spent a good chunk of his money, and preached a lot. What came after his death, and especially what Rutherford became was not what Russell wanted for the group if you read the source materials.

In fact, what we know as Jehovahs Witnesses is the creation of Rutherford, refined by Knorr, and ghost written by Franz The myth of Russell is the creation of the fertile mind of Franz and used to great effect by succeeding leaders of the cult to this day

21

Does the younger generation have our work ethic?

by compound complex in

jw
friends

greetings, you hard workers:.

i've had enough of speaking in generalities during my time as a jw evangelizer.

while my own experience will offer up mere anecdotal examples at best, my contemporaries and i have found that kids today lack the earnestness and drive we older folks have had since youth: setting up a lemonade stand; doing yard work without power assist; mopping floors; running errands for a dime; cleaning parking lots, etc.

AllTimeJeff

Since you asked......

My feeling is that generationally, everyone goes through their 20's in the same way. They're adults, trying to understand the world they find themselves in, wondering who they are. Some are good, some not so much.

I read a blog by a millennial a couple of years ago, where she wanted to have a job with meaning, the resources to be happy, yet not a slave to a job or money. That was me! I just didn't have social media as a platform for my angst. That blog convinced me personally that it isn't a generational thing, it's what you go through in your 20's...

My personal conclusion is firstly, millenials are just like others going through their 20's and 30's. They're just the first group that had access to and used social media to discuss these things, which had the unintended consequence of glamourizing their generation and their plight. Prior to this, people in their 20's were told to shut up and wait their turn.And let's face it, whatever the "American Dream" was, is not available to this group. Crushing student loan debt and a country that hasn't been this divided since the 60's has served to turn millenials off from anything older generations have to sell. There is no trust, because that trust has been destroyed.

Secondly, what constitutes "work" has changed. It's not like your day Coco, or even mine. And yes, there are those that work hard and get that. However, it is to be expected in my opinion that since work has evolved into "knowledge" work, and manual labor/trades are generally looked down on (for no good particular reason) that millennials are not going to be looking to lemonade stands, when they actually can see the abyss better than any other young generation, and are generally turned off by their prospects.

Another quote that I respect goes something like "Young people will pay the price if they can see the future." No future has been provided that millenials want to work for, and I think they have a point. It isn't about work ethic, it's about the cliff we all are collectively hurtling towards.

Hope sells. Whether it's MLK Jr, Reagan, or Obama, what is needed is a vision that people can buy into. Without that, chaos ensues.

Just my two cents....

12

Motives Matter

by AllTimeJeff in

there is a difference between the leadership of the borg (gb 2.5, is that what they're on now?

) and the sheeples, that for a variety of reasons, stick with this nonsense.. not every jw publisher believes this stuff.

the gb knows this.

AllTimeJeff

nicolaou, I surely hope we’ve all grown since those discussions. Those debates help me work out a lot of own thinking on matters. Very grateful I had this forum and others to help. :)

33

Why do so many that leave wind up coming back?!

by nowwhat? in

i have seen so many that have left.

and their life turned into a dumpster fire.

most do not live the average life of living in suburbs, raising a family.

AllTimeJeff

I’d be careful about buying into that narrative. Most who leave turn out just fine.

This is just a personal theory, but I suspect that the “dumpster fires” you refer to are actually among the most injured by the cult. When they leave, they usually have no support systems, especially at first, and so struggle, and frequently make poor decisions. Most figure out. Sadly a few do not, including my brother. But that doesn’t mean everyone turns out like that. That’s just GB inspired bull crap.

24

The speed with which I exited!!

by joe134cd in

i was just thinking at how quickly the process was from pimi - pimo - pomo.

i must of spent about 10 years trudging along in the organization very unhappily.

but from the initial stages of learning ttatt to physically walking out the door the process took about 18 months.

AllTimeJeff

It took Gilead to open my eyes. I actually checked out and admitted to myself that this isn’t the truth smack in the middle of class 119. Such horsehit taught that it was unbelievable. The day in class where I said that to myself, I looked at my now ex and everyone in the class, and they were writing that stuff down like they just said “2+2=4. Got it!” I just couldn’t get over the alarming acceptance of it all.

From the time of that class to my actual exit was about16 months. I was caught in the rip tide, didn’t know what to do and went to Cameroon for about a half year before returning to the States.

12

Motives Matter

by AllTimeJeff in

there is a difference between the leadership of the borg (gb 2.5, is that what they're on now?

) and the sheeples, that for a variety of reasons, stick with this nonsense.. not every jw publisher believes this stuff.

the gb knows this.

AllTimeJeff

Interesting turn on the discussion. The Sheeples are a special lot. As an old saying goes, “If you don’t have anything planned for your life, you’ll likely fall into the plans of someone else. And guess what they have planned for you? Not much!”

24

Are you better off as a worldly person or a JW?

by Jules Saturn in

i was having a conversation with a relative who has been inactive for several decades (part of the ‘75 generation) and he argued that a person that is a born in is better off staying in the organization rather than someone like him who lived as a “worldly” person but then became a witness later in life.

he argues that when you’re born in, all you know nothing outside of the organization, so you’re better off in than out, that’s why when born ins leave the org, they always come back.

i agree that as a born in, your social circle is composed of witnesses but i do feel that even born ins would be happier outside of the org than being in.

AllTimeJeff

If you examine the statistics at any point since the 1990s you’ll see that the amount baptized is way more than the overall membership growth. There are plenty who leave and are worldly. They never post here or anywhere on the internet. They just left and moved on. For them, it was an episode in their life. This includes a lot of born ins who move on. Not everyone is a troubled mentally disturbed person because they left. We just never hear from the ones who leave.

I’ve never been desirous of letting my JW past dictate my future. That’s why my calling isn’t in the online movement. I’ll certainly call a spade a spade with anyone who asks. But I just want to show the GB and former associates who knew me that, yes, I’m doing just fine without you and your shit eating, “Have a Watchtower and get saved” grin.