Posts by AllTimeJeff

322

God and Suffering

by AK - Jeff in

a few weeks back, in the midst of the haiti tragedy, much discussion took place in cyberland about the tolerance [or indeed the insistence on] suffering by a loving god.

the furor over haiti has settled a bit [as unfortunately most tragedy is wont to do far too quickly in the human mind], but this persistent matter continues to chew at my subconscience.

today i came across this:.

I know BTS. My point is, sometimes the emotions of any debater here can obscure the arguments. I share many of AK Jeff's observations on the matter. (not all, many) and as such, his feelings are not the point per se.

Your angry verbiage suggests that there are deeper roots than a mere intellectual disagreement. Is God like an absent Father to you? Or even an abusive one?

I follow your reasoning, and it is an interesting counter argument, but it also suggests that the reasons for AK Jeffs (or mine for that matter) objection on how "god" potentially handles suffering is more of an emotional reaction then an objective observation on what AKJ has discussed. As if demanding accountablity from the god who wants/demands/asks for our worship is a bad thing.

If AKJeff's points are "angry verbiage" that suggest deeper roots, to me, I have to say, that obscures the argument AKJeff presented and attempts a bit of armchair psychology to boot. Personally, I do not perceive what you do.

322

God and Suffering

by AK - Jeff in

a few weeks back, in the midst of the haiti tragedy, much discussion took place in cyberland about the tolerance [or indeed the insistence on] suffering by a loving god.

the furor over haiti has settled a bit [as unfortunately most tragedy is wont to do far too quickly in the human mind], but this persistent matter continues to chew at my subconscience.

today i came across this:.

AllTimeJeff

Why be mad at the emotions of AK Jeff and instead focus on the actions/inactions that is causing the being pissed off state?

39

Tell me why MY VIEW of Christianity is wrong

by Terry in

i sometimes think the standard christian view of things is this.. mankind, like the people in new orleans after hurricane katrina, are stranded waiting on aid and god flys over and sees them on the roof waving and holding up signs, but, he can't really do as much as he would like to.. he has some stopgap aid here and there for a few, but, mostly everybody just has to do the best they can to hang on.. like federal aid or the national guard---jesus is coming!

hang on!

jesus is coming!.

AllTimeJeff

To be honest, Einstein was a bit all over the place with his statements on god. It seemed he, like most of us here, was continuing to grow in his own understanding of god.

Just because he is Einstein doesn't mean his understanding of spirituality was smart. Thats a bit different from quantam physics, math, et al.

I realize that to call someone an "Einstein" can be either an honor or a mockery, but I don't really find his opinions on the subject of god, religion, or spirituality particularly compelling, other then I read of few other theoretical physicists who are as paid attention to.

He was a rather prolific political and philosophical commentator, but his particular discipline was physics. Take that for what you will. I know I do.

28

The most frightening time in this Worlds History!

by wannabe in

does the bible supply us with any information, that might give us, at least, some idea when this frightening time period will begin?does it show us, in some way, just how frightening this time period will be, and just what is the main cause of it?

" [matthew 24:8 niv}.

what was it that actually marked the beginning of these birth pangs?

AllTimeJeff

I miss scaring the absolute shit out of myself with the visions of the future, courtesy of the bible. It's sort of like a roller coaster ride, unstrapped.

322

God and Suffering

by AK - Jeff in

a few weeks back, in the midst of the haiti tragedy, much discussion took place in cyberland about the tolerance [or indeed the insistence on] suffering by a loving god.

the furor over haiti has settled a bit [as unfortunately most tragedy is wont to do far too quickly in the human mind], but this persistent matter continues to chew at my subconscience.

today i came across this:.

AllTimeJeff

Perry, as usual, you take the position that to discuss God in the abstract, or even the possibility of his existence, one must believe he exists first. Wrong. Fail.

(small thought. Perry, why do I follow you around sometimes? Because you preach and act just like I did as a JW with your replacement beliefs. I apologize to you Perry because I am sure at times, I am a pain in your born again behind. I have no issues with your personal beliefs, just the lack of intellectual honesty that accompanies them when you discuss them with others. And before we start going "neener neener" at each other, I realize you feel the same about my beliefs.)

39

Tell me why MY VIEW of Christianity is wrong

by Terry in

i sometimes think the standard christian view of things is this.. mankind, like the people in new orleans after hurricane katrina, are stranded waiting on aid and god flys over and sees them on the roof waving and holding up signs, but, he can't really do as much as he would like to.. he has some stopgap aid here and there for a few, but, mostly everybody just has to do the best they can to hang on.. like federal aid or the national guard---jesus is coming!

hang on!

jesus is coming!.

AllTimeJeff

I think Christianity is a bit overstated in what it can do.

I prefer for example, PSac views, simply because they allow for other people's beliefs. Also, he has a belief that I would agree with were I a Christian, that not all "gods" are for all people.

However, it can't be denied that even if God is real to you, he isn't real to others, nor can he be pointed to in any kind of tanglible, real way. No theist should think that somehow, because God is real to them, that should make him real to others

BTS, correct me if I am wrong, but in your last post, it sounds more to me like you are talking about the value of faith. Thats different. I think people with a spiritual need and pursue that with worship are alright with me, so long as they can maintain some semblance of intellectual honesty.

It would be VERY nice to hear more of PSac's sentiments, which if I understand him correctly, says. "I believe in god. I can't prove what I believe. My faith is strong and important to me, and that's good enough for me. At the same time, I understand why others don't believe, and I can't give them answers to their questions, although it is my hope that they will be at peace however they choose to answer the god question for themselves."

I might be high on that one, but it'd be nice.

In short (sorry for the rant there) to Terry's point, the lack of agreement even among Christians to me demonstrates that Christianity is a good fit as a personal philosophy, a bad fit for a religion that makes the claims it does. (i.e. the truth for all, the key to eternal salvation...)

322

God and Suffering

by AK - Jeff in

a few weeks back, in the midst of the haiti tragedy, much discussion took place in cyberland about the tolerance [or indeed the insistence on] suffering by a loving god.

the furor over haiti has settled a bit [as unfortunately most tragedy is wont to do far too quickly in the human mind], but this persistent matter continues to chew at my subconscience.

today i came across this:.

AllTimeJeff

So if not the biblical explanation about us being by nature...his enemies, What?

You mean, there isn't another explanation. This is very arrogant of you. Religiously, there are 6 billion people on earth with different explanations, based on the religious traditions. These billions would be offended that you haven't considered their texts or reasons. You are being self righteous again Perry.

Either God is good; or, we are good. That's really what it comes down to.

No way in hell is this correct. Having said that, I have seen evidence of man being good, not god.

Either God doesn't exist and matter appeared out of nothing, or we aren't good. We have zero evidence for the former and mountains of evidence for the latter to those willing to look at it.

I don't rule out a first cause, but that hardly reveals love and concern or personality. My house was made by a builder who doesn't even know me or my sufferings. So what? Even if you want to assume creation doesn't mean that it explains suffering. You are being self righteous again Perry.

Perry, your belief in god, as powerful as that is in your life, doesn't explain suffering. For that matter, God isn't explaining suffering anyway right now. YOU are Perry, DD, and others who are trying to say the following:

"Yes, God cares about you and the worlds suffering. Prove it? Ok, look here at this bible text. No? It's too old and scattershot with odd thoughts? Written by men? Ok, look, we are created beings, as evidenced by the universe having a common beginning. That is proof that God cares about sufferiing. How? Because that prove God exists. Does God existing mean's he cares? Ok, look here at this bible text. No? It's too old and scattershot with odd thoughts? Written by men? Ok, look, we are created beings, as evidenced by the universe having a common beginning. That is proof that God cares about sufferiing. How? Because that prove God exists. Does God existing mean's he cares? Ok, look here at this bible text. No? It's too old and scattershot with odd thoughts? Written by men? Ok, look, we are created beings, as evidenced by the universe having a common beginning. That is proof that God cares about sufferiing. How? Because that prove God exists. Does God existing mean's he cares?Ok, look here at this bible text. No? It's too old and scattershot with odd thoughts? Written by men? Ok, look, we are created beings, as evidenced by the universe having a common beginning. That is proof that God cares about sufferiing. How? Because that prove God exists. Does God existing mean's he cares?"

Let me know when you all stop chasing your tail around.

38

Are JWs attracting more and more off-center people?

by undercover in

jw
friends

this thread is prompted by the thread about a jw woman who disprupted a funeral.

i don't know the details as i can't view youtube from work, but it did get me to thinking.... over the last couple of decades, at least, i've noticed that more and more 'fringe personalities', for a lack of a better term, have infiltrated the ranks of the everyday jws.

true, jws are themselves a fringe element to normal society, but even within their own communities, there used to be a sense of normalcy, or at least seemed to be.. has the cultic message of the wt society started attracting people with different thought processes over this time period?

AllTimeJeff

I think an overall liberalization of the world and religious views have affected all religions, and because of this, it has affected JW's.

It was my observation that JW's were somewhat adept at getting the zealous fringe people from other religions up through some point in the 1980's, with some ebb and flow in between. These people went from passionately caring about their old religion to passionately caring about JW dogma and all the "organized" activities of JW's...

This is just a newly formed thought for me, but it seems reasonable as a working theory to postulate that as overall religious zeal has ebbed since the 1990's, that the ratio of zealous JW converts has dropped. Thus, the only really zealous converts would have to be, by process of elimination, just a bit high strung, unstable, irrational, needing to do and believe in something no matter what.

Enter Jehovah's Witnesses, the religion of no matter what.

Yeah, as a general answer, JW's rarely convert what most people would consider as normal or stable people.

86

Favorite catch phrases from movies, the ones you actually use.

by John Doe in

jw
friends

the old wierd guy on "princess bride" who says "have fun storming the castle!

" i've used that line more than once.

.

AllTimeJeff

I wish I could quote scripture like Samuel L Jackson did in Pulp Fiction, passionate, soaring oratory, and being able to aim a gun at anyone who pissed me off while I was quoting the good book... (I am in a mood tonight.... lol)

20

Bethel snobs tell me off for wearing Rebooks and polo shirt to Bethel! Next time I'm going Nude!

by Witness 007 in

2007 so we go on holidays and my wife decided to visit bethel.....i wasn't even planning to go to the meetings, so i put on running shoes, blue slacks, and a light blue polo shirt....clean shaven....to a "worldly" person i would look neat and tidy....a bit of a nerd even!

to bethelites i looked like a slob giving the finger to jehovah!

one bethelite girl asked my wife if we were "newly interested.

AllTimeJeff

Tom was never the same after Splash... No wonder he accepted a bible study. Mermaids will kill ya!

Next time, where a shirt and tie, and super glue some extra large nipples to the inside of the shirt. If anyone asks, tell them you're lactating.... It should have the awesome, intended side affect of causing unwanted sexual arousal for many of the bethelites, and they honestly won't be able to figure out why....