I thought they walked on water until my brother passed away. It was then that slowly but surely, I started to think for myself.
AllTimeJeff
JoinedPosts by AllTimeJeff
-
29
Am I the only one who thought the GB was 100% correct when they were a JW?
by NiceDream ina few months ago i began researching my doubts on the internet about the wtbts and i came across a bunch of crazy facts.
this helped me realize this isn't "the truth.".
when i was growing up, i believed the society was always right, and we needed to obey what was in the publications.
-
-
-
41
The Significance of Raymond Victor Franz
by AllTimeJeff inthe significance of raymond franz.
in the light of the passing of raymond franz this week, it is clear from the reaction that many were affected by the deeds of this man.
while he was called gentle by those who knew him (for the record, i never got to meet him personally) his reputation preceded him both in the ex jehovah's witness community, and still to this day at the world headquarters of jehovah's witnesses.. while his writings were indeed fair and reasonable, (i challenge anyone to read his books and find bitterness associated with him toward his former peers) i think it would be a mistake to remember ray franz as somewhat of a gentle, doting old man.
-
-
AllTimeJeff
Some have commented on the unique intersection of circumstances that led to Franz's leaving and the subsequent publication of Crisis of Conscience.
To wit: Franz had disagreed for sometime with the lack of use or even interest in what the bible said, esp if it contradicted traditional WT teachings. Also remember that in 1976, the committee format took hold. From Russell through 1975, one man was essentially in charge. It is clear to me that since 1976, the Governing Body took itself (too) seriously on the enforcement of their authority. This crystalized when Franz became an issue to them.
Not satisfied with merely kicking him off the body, they were convinced that he needed to go. Period. What an utter lack of imagination the GB showed, and how much they underestimated him. If they had handled him more respectfully, there is a possibility that CoC would never have been published, or perhaps if it were, would have had a much different tone. Instead, the GB insisted on their authority, that it trumped all else.
Franz knew and saw the goofiness, and how they played fast and loose with chronology and prophecy. He knew of the cynicism from which came their arrogance about changing those dates, or (heaven forbid) admit they were wrong.
But without an authoratative viewpoint, and eyewitness insider, much of this would have stayed below the surface like a festering wound that was painful but barely noticeable.
Most of all, CoC reveals to me the fundamental tactical weakness of the Governing Body as a whole: They really do believe their own bullshit. They know they are wrong about the prophecies. They even express those doubts. Yet, they still really do think that Jehovah and Jesus use them, that they are one of 144,000 Christians who have lived since the first century who will rule with Christ in heaven. Having gone to Gilead, I can tell you that the GB still suffers from the same delusions today.
They really believe that Jehovah uses them, that the GB really is special. It is the only way they can justify their own power while at the same time knowing that they don't get anything right on the ol chronology/prophecy front. And of course, from their point of view, it is for the good of the flock that this is generally kept from them, to make sure that more "positive" things are kept to the fore.
It could stumble a lot of JW's to know about the dates, the UN collusion, et al.
And without Ray Franz, little of this would be known, and perhaps many of us would still be a frustrated JW not knowing how to put 2+2 together on the cult.
Randy, you didn't have to be his friend to be an ally for the same thing, that of real, honest truth.
-
41
The Significance of Raymond Victor Franz
by AllTimeJeff inthe significance of raymond franz.
in the light of the passing of raymond franz this week, it is clear from the reaction that many were affected by the deeds of this man.
while he was called gentle by those who knew him (for the record, i never got to meet him personally) his reputation preceded him both in the ex jehovah's witness community, and still to this day at the world headquarters of jehovah's witnesses.. while his writings were indeed fair and reasonable, (i challenge anyone to read his books and find bitterness associated with him toward his former peers) i think it would be a mistake to remember ray franz as somewhat of a gentle, doting old man.
-
-
AllTimeJeff
The Significance of Raymond Franz
In the light of the passing of Raymond Franz this week, it is clear from the reaction that many were affected by the deeds of this man. While he was called gentle by those who knew him (for the record, I never got to meet him personally) his reputation preceded him both in the ex Jehovah's Witness community, and still to this day at the World Headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses.
While his writings were indeed fair and reasonable, (I challenge anyone to read his books and find bitterness associated with him toward his former peers) I think it would be a mistake to remember Ray Franz as somewhat of a gentle, doting old man. Mr Franz was a man of dynamic action.
Consider his life. This was a man with the conviction to live in 3rd world countries as a missionary after WWII to preach what he thought to be the truth. This was a man who lived in remote areas, visited and taught strangers, all because of the deep conviction that he had. He spent his entire life through his 50's living below the poverty level, volunteering like many Jehovah's Witnesses do to preach.
It was this same conviction that allowed him to be a leader within Jehovah's Witnesses, to accept a role as a member of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. It was also this same conviction and dynamism that motivated him to follow his conscience when he saw the troubling activities and conduct of the Governing Body during the 1970's.
Why would a man in his 50's resign his leadership position (though not leave the religion)? It was over principle. It was over what was right. When he resigned in 1980, up to the time he was disfellowshipped in 1981 for having a meal with a former Jehovah's Witness, Franz continued to to see the conduct of the Governing Body, and how it hurt people.
It was with a desire to help people along with his conviction and courage that motivated this man of action to write what would be the book that would define him, (Crisis of Conscience), expose the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, and ultimately help tens of thousands of people negotiate their troubled relationship with a troubled cult.
Anyone who is familiar with Jehovah's Witnesses knows that they view any dissenting opinion, any self expression, any expression of autonomy as on par with the activities of Satan himself. The Governing Body knows best of all their checkered past, their failed attempts at prophecy, their morphed dogma, all of which destroys their own claim that Jesus invisibly chose them in 1919, even though Jehovah's Witnesses believe practically nothing that they once believed back in that year.
Ray Franz knew all of this. He knew he had an obligation to report what he saw.
The two books that Franz wrote, Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom, are not light and easy reads. It is doubtful that unless one is familiar with the whole Jehovah's Witness hierarchy and activities that they would mean a whole lot to you.
But to those who for decades had to live with doubts based on the changing doctrine and lies of the Governing Body, who had to put up with elders who were trained to treat their flocks with kindness only if they put up good numbers in the door knocking activity of Jehovah's Witnesses, who struggled with the cruelty of disfellowshipping, the inconsistency of the Witness blood doctrine, the unwelcome intrusion into the bedroom of married Witnesses, Ray Franz literally saved their life.
When I was a Regular Pioneer, we used to say that we were looking for the most zealous person to convert. If they were a super zealous Catholic for example, there was no doubt they would make a super zealous Jehovah's Witness.
The Governing Body missed on Ray Franz. They forgot to look at his past and see that this might have been a gentle and meek man on the outside, but inside, was a most zealous, courageous, and honest man.
Like most of us, Ray Franz did what he thought was best at the time. It is difficult to accept the truth if it differs from how one was raised to view certain matters. At one time, Ray Franz was one of the most zealous Jehovah's Witnesses ever. He thought it was the truth©. When he learned otherwise, and the damage that this caused, his zeal turned, not against Jehovah's Witnesses, but toward a simple discussion of the facts, of what was true, to help others see for themselves the facts, the truth about the truth.
Ray Franz was always about the truth. It was never about the truth© that Jehovah's Witnesses speak of. It was about honesty.
In the end, Raymond Victor Franz was not just a man of deep thought, but of deep action and conviction. His latter years bear eloquent testimony to the good that an honest, thoughtful person of conviction can do, if they will just do it.
-
23
ATTENTION ALL LURKING, CURIOUS JW'S, JW TROLLS, AND FORMER JW'S DETERMINED TO SAVE JW'S FROM THEMSELVES
by AllTimeJeff inthank you all.. it seems that we former jw's have excellent reasons to be be upset.
between being lied to about how russell and rutherford started this fruity little cult, having to deal with the coverups of pedophiles and other criminals, the mysoginistic treatment of women, being lied to about 1914 and the related date of 607 bce, the ridiculous and ever changing blood doctrine, being lied to about gb involvement in the un, the changed it once and now back again understanding of what a "generation" is, being lied to about when the end of this system was supposed to come, being lied to about 1975, being told not to go to college and instead explore the underrated world of window washing with the outstanding income potential it produces...... *panting* i am sorry, i am out of breath...... my point is this, (and i speak from experience): former jw's are pretty raw.
and thus, easily exploitable on internet boards by trolls.. trolls see this.
-
-
AllTimeJeff
BTTT
-
43
Here is the Letter I am thinking of sending ,give me your input
by troubled mind inattention to the elder body of the *******congregation of jehovahs witnesses .
criminal harassment is defined as "engag(ing) in intentional conduct which the actor [harasser] knows or has reason to know would cause the victim, under the circumstances, to feel frightened, threatened, oppressed, persecuted, or intimidated; and causes this reaction on the part of the victim.
609.749, subd.
-
-
AllTimeJeff
Remember as Scully told you in your other thread, your goal should be to NOT play into their hands while protecting yourself. Your statements about your views of their religion play into what they want. They WANT to disfellowship you, and will look for anything in writing to do it.
So I would avoid any statements in your letter outside of the harrassment. Leave it legal. You don't have to acknowledge anything to those elders, other then you want their harrassment to stop.
Why you want to cease seeing them, even if you used to talk to the elders, is entirely your purview. You don't owe them an explanation for why you want the harrassment to stop.
It's like asking an abusive husband to stop. Do you need a reason? Yeah, cause it hurts. But that goes without saying.
So I would go without saying anything more then necessary.
-
43
Here is the Letter I am thinking of sending ,give me your input
by troubled mind inattention to the elder body of the *******congregation of jehovahs witnesses .
criminal harassment is defined as "engag(ing) in intentional conduct which the actor [harasser] knows or has reason to know would cause the victim, under the circumstances, to feel frightened, threatened, oppressed, persecuted, or intimidated; and causes this reaction on the part of the victim.
609.749, subd.
-
-
AllTimeJeff
Here's a thought.
I would make it totally a legal letter. By you mentioning disassociation, you are in effect, giving them permission to disfellowship you.
I would take out the following material
There is nothing I see in the Bible that calls for a formal letter of disassociation in my situation, or any other. I did not sign a contract with an organization at my baptism . In 1978 baptism was still a dedication to God not an organization like it is today . It seems to me that the provision of formal disassociation is a matter of convenience for the Elder body or the Society rather than serving any real religious purpose. It allows people to be pigeon-holed into nice neat little categories rather than dealing with real issues .
My spirituality is between me and my heavenly Father . I wish to be left alone and allowed to seek that journey on my own .Since you are involving the police, just leave it legal, and let them sulk in their own sour milk.
Great letter btw.
-
28
Okay I just got back from the Police department
by troubled mind inthe officer was very understanding and helpful .
he said you would be surprised how many citizens they have come in and ask how to stop the jehovahs from coming to their doors .. .
i told him my whole story about leaving the jw's after 44 yrs and just wanting peace and freedom .
-
-
-
84
Why should I have to sign a letter saying I want to disassociate ?
by troubled mind ini don't understand why the elders want this letter so badly ....for one i don't remember signing a contract to become a jehovah's witness ,why do i need to resign ?.
also i was baptised in 1978 before the baptism questions changed , i dedicated myself to god not an organization .
my vow was to follow the direction by holy spirit as revealed to me through the bible, not the watchtower ...... if i belonged to the luthern church and quit going after three yrs they drop your name off the member list ........but if i chose to come to easter or christmas service everyonre would still talk to me i just wouldn't be a member any more .. .
-
-
AllTimeJeff
I agree that you should call the police if he keeps it up.
-
9
Are you certain you're a Baptized Christian?
by wannabe inare you certain you're baptized?.
is it also not true, because of that, the old law covenant was set aside?
{1 corinthians 1:17} {romans 11:13}.
-
-
AllTimeJeff
Wannabe, I realize that you are writing about a topic of dogma. If I might say, this caught my eye. You said:
So! What do we have? We have 2.1 Billion Baptized Christian's who are not Christian's. 1.1 Billion Catholics that think they are Baptized Christian's but are not Christian's. We have 7 Million Jehovah's Witnesses that think they are Baptized Christian's but are not Christian's. Now I don't know the body count of all of them lumped together, but one thing I do know, is, none of them are Baptized Christian's. Unless you're Baptized by the Christ, you're not Baptized. Deal with it!
Keep this one thought ever forward in your minds! Today we are under the New Covenant. It was under that Covenant the Christ was to do his ONE Baptism for very good reasons. That was to put Jehovah's Laws within us, and write them on our hearts; so that all will know Jehovah, from the least of us to the greatest of us. Those Laws are put within us by the power of the Holy Spirit in the hands now of the Christ. Read these following scriptures and learn just how those Laws are put within us, and written on our hearts. {John 14:15-17,26} {John 16:13} {1John 2:27} {Acts 2:33} {Galatians 1:11,12} {Ephesians 3:3} ¨Jeremiah 31:31-34
Without that Baptizm the knowledge we need put within us and written on our hearts is not possible to gain, because only Jesus is in control of the Holy Spirit now, used for Baptizing. If we have not been baptized by him, say what you will, but you are not a Baptized Christian! You delude yourself! Wannabe
I find there is much in dogmatic religions that trouble me. Your tone and judgmentalism is what troubles me. I totally disagree with you. If a person tells me that they were baptized and it was a pivotal moment in their life, then who am I, or you, to dispute that? There are just as many scriptures that support baptism outside of the your expressed, opinionated view that dispute what you suggest.
I realize that you are expressing an opinion, and I respect your right to do so. But you are no different in my mind to any other controlling, self righteous religious group.
Deal with it.
-
84
Why should I have to sign a letter saying I want to disassociate ?
by troubled mind ini don't understand why the elders want this letter so badly ....for one i don't remember signing a contract to become a jehovah's witness ,why do i need to resign ?.
also i was baptised in 1978 before the baptism questions changed , i dedicated myself to god not an organization .
my vow was to follow the direction by holy spirit as revealed to me through the bible, not the watchtower ...... if i belonged to the luthern church and quit going after three yrs they drop your name off the member list ........but if i chose to come to easter or christmas service everyonre would still talk to me i just wouldn't be a member any more .. .
-
-
AllTimeJeff
You can't control what JW's do or what they call things. They say anyone that leaves "disassociates" themself. I call that absolute bullshit. I resigned. They are certainly allowed to call it whatever they want. Of course, as we all know, they lie quite a bit, so it doesn't matter what they call anything.
In your case, my thoughts for someone in your situation is pretty simple: Do what you want. If you told the elders all that you wanted, and THEY want a letter, THEY can go pound sand.
Write a letter only if you want to and it serves some kind of purpose for you. In my case, it served a lot of purposes for me. I knew who would read it at Bethel.
In your case, tell the elders very simply that you have done and said all you care to. If they insist in trying to talk you into it, repeat it ironically until they get the message.
Do things your way, for your reasons, and don't worry about things, people, or cults that you have no control over.
Btw, congrats on your freedom.