Posts by erandir

15

WTB&TS in Germany Gets Tithes...

by prophecor in

..... ....directly from your wallet if you are one of jehovah's witnesses.

it appears according to governmental regulations in germany allow for the fleecing of its adhereants, directly thru levies and tithes, taken from thier members wallets via the government, without having to ask, anymore.

see section ii, paragraphs 1,2 and 3 of this document.

erandir

Just another example of the WT and government being in bed together. Neutrality is only for the rank & file, it seems!

59

Has the Watchtower ever officially LIED?

by Dead Man Joaquin in

no, i'm not here to defend them.

but you know how they love to get off on technicalities.

i'm sure all here would agree that the wt is extremely evasive, misleading, and intellectually dishonest (i.e.

erandir

For example, if you actually read the disclaimer on the WT Library CD-ROM it states somewhere that the contents therein cannot be guaranteed to be the exact representation of the original material (or something to that effect), so we can't really nail them there for revisionist history.

It's true. I didn't believe it at first, but I looked at the license agreement myself and guess what I found:

DISCLAIMER. EXCEPT FOR THE LIMITED WARRANTY SET FORTH ABOVE, THE SOFTWARE AND THE PRINTED MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED TO YOU IN "AS IS" CONDITION WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, WARRANTIES OF PERFORMANCE, MERCHANTABILITY, AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. YOU BEAR ALL RISK RELATING TO QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE SOFTWARE. YOU ASSUME COMPLETE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE SELECTION AND INSTALLATION OF THE SOFTWARE. SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OF IMPLIED WARRANTIES, SO SOME PORTION OF THE STATED EXCLUSIONS MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. THIS LIMITED WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU MAY HAVE OTHER RIGHTS THAT VARY AMONG JURISDICTIONS. WATCH TOWER DOES NOT WARRANT THAT THE DATA IS IDENTICAL TO WATCH TOWER'S PUBLICATIONS.

That last line is the kicker. To what kind of honesty do "the brothers" running the show at the WT Headquarters subscribe that allows them to get away with something like this? That is just wrong, in my opinion.

70

The fade is over, talked to my parents last night. (very very long)

by Paralipomenon in

jw
friends

there would never be a good time to have this conversation.

quite different from most people raised a witness, i have very few horror stories about my upbringing.

my family was just a family, my mom and dad fought and argued, my siblings and i misbehaved and got in trouble.. .

erandir

I'm glad to see the outcome ended on a somewhat positive note.

She gave me a hug and I went to leave. Standing at the door my mom thanked me for talking to them and my dad said he was proud of me.

Was your dad proud of you in the sense that you have the personal intergrity to live up to your convictions? For example, you see the Society in a certain light and aren't willing to go along with it, and he respects that? Or is it pride for something else?

21

Official protocol for DF family member

by ellderwho in

while talking with mom(active dub) this morning, i said " aren't you glad i was never baptised so you can still talk and have a mother son relationship'?

her response shocked me in that she said it wouldn't matter your still my son.

and she would be able to talk with me, just cannot discuss the jw religion.. i was always under the impression you would be shunned for the rest of your life, unless you went through the chain of command for reinstatement.

erandir

The two most recent articles availabe on the subject of relatives being disfellowshipped and how to treat them are "When a Loved One Leaves Jehovah," Sept. 1, 2006 Watchtower, pp. 17-21, and "Display Christian Loyalty When a Relative is Disfellowshipped," August 2002, Our Kingdom Ministry, pp. 3-4.

The first article from w06 9/1 17-21, including picture captions and two boxes:

When
aLovedOneLeavesJehovah
MARK and Louise are Jehovah’s Witnesses. With love and care, they taught the Scriptures to their children, as the Bible exhorts Christian parents to do. (Proverbs 22:6; 2 Timothy 3:15) Sadly, not all of their children continued to serve Jehovah upon becoming young adults. "My heart aches for the children who strayed," says Louise. "How can I pretend that it doesn’t hurt desperately from day to day? When others speak of their sons, my throat tightens up and I have to hold back tears."
Yes, when a person chooses to leave Jehovah and the way of life set out in the Scriptures, faithful family members typically experience deep anguish. "I love my sister very much," says Irene. "I would do anything to see her come back to Jehovah!" Maria, whose brother turned his back on Jehovah to pursue a course of immoral conduct, says: "This has been hard for me to bear because in every other respect, he has been a wonderful brother to me. I especially miss him at large family gatherings."
Why
IsItSoHard?
Why does the spiritual loss of a child or other loved one cause such deep distress to Christian relatives? Because they know that the Scriptures promise eternal life on a paradise earth for those who remain loyal to Jehovah. (Psalm 37:29; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:3-5) They look forward to sharing these blessings with their mates, children, parents, siblings, and grandchildren. How it pains them to think that their loved ones who have stopped serving Jehovah may miss out! Even with regard to their present life, Christians appreciate that Jehovah’s laws and principles are for their benefit. Christians are therefore heartbroken to see their loved ones sow in such a way as to ensure a bitter harvest.—Isaiah 48:17, 18; Galatians 6:7, 8.
It may be difficult for some who have never experienced such a loss to appreciate just how devastating it can be. Virtually every aspect of life is affected. "It has become harder and harder to sit at Christian meetings and see parents laughing and talking with their children," says Louise. "Any happy event is overshadowed by emptiness because of the ones missing." One Christian elder recalls the four years during which his wife’s daughter cut off association with them. He says: "Often, even the ‘good times’ were difficult. If I gave my wife a gift or took her somewhere nice for a weekend, she would break down crying, remembering that her daughter did not share our happiness."
Are such Christians overreacting? Not necessarily. In fact, they may to some extent be reflecting the qualities of Jehovah, in whose image man was made. (Genesis 1:26, 27) What does this mean? Well, how did Jehovah feel when his people Israel rebelled against him? From Psalm 78:38-41, we learn that Jehovah was hurt and pained. Yet, he patiently warned and disciplined them, forgiving them time and again upon their demonstrating repentance. Obviously, Jehovah feels a personal attachment to his creatures, ‘the work of his hands,’ and does not easily give up on them. (Job 14:15; Jonah 4:10, 11) He implanted in humans the capacity for having similar loyal attachments, and the bond between family members can be especially strong. So it is not surprising that humans would grieve over the spiritual loss of a beloved relative.
Indeed, the spiritual loss of a loved one is among the most difficult of trials that come upon true worshippers. (Acts 14:22) Jesus said that accepting his message would cause division in some families. (Matthew 10:34-38) This is not because the Bible message of itself causes family division. Rather, unbelieving or unfaithful family members cause a rift by rejecting, abandoning, or even opposing the way of Christianity. We can be thankful, however, that Jehovah does not leave his faithful ones without a means of coping with the trials that beset them. If you are presently sorrowing over the spiritual loss of a loved one, what Bible principles can help you endure the grief and find a measure of joy and contentment?
Coping
"By
buildingupyourselves . . . ,keepyourselvesinGod’slove." (Jude 20, 21) Depending on your particular circumstances, it may be that there is nothing you can do at this time to help a family member who has stopped serving Jehovah. Nevertheless, you can and should build up yourself as well as any remaining faithful family members. Veronica, who saw two of her three sons leave the truth, says: "My husband and I were reminded that if we remain in a strong spiritual state, we will be in the best condition to welcome back our sons when they come to their senses. Where would the prodigal son have been if his father had not been in a condition to receive him back?"
To keep yourself in a strong condition, be absorbed in spiritual activities. This would include maintaining a schedule for deep Bible study and attending Christian meetings. Make yourself available to help others in the congregation to the extent that your circumstances allow. True, initially you may find such activities difficult. Veronica recalls: "My first instinct was to isolate myself like a wounded animal. But my husband insisted on our keeping a good spiritual routine. He made sure that we went to the meetings. When it was time to attend a convention, I needed a lot of courage to go and face people. Yet, the program drew us closer to Jehovah. Our son who had remained faithful was particularly built up by that convention."
Maria, mentioned earlier, finds it especially helpful to stay busy in the field ministry and is presently helping four persons to learn about the Bible. Similarly, Laura says: "Although I still cry daily, I thank Jehovah that even if I have not had the success that some parents have had in raising children, I do have the Bible’s perfect message, which is able to help families in these last days." Ken and Eleanor, whose adult children left the congregation, arranged their circumstances to move to an area where there is a greater need for Kingdom publishers and to pursue the full-time ministry. This has helped them keep matters in perspective and avoid being swallowed up by sorrow.
Do
notgiveuphope. Love "hopes all things." (1 Corinthians 13:7) Ken, mentioned above, says: "When our children left the way of the truth, I thought that it was like their death. But after my sister died, my view changed. I am grateful that my children are not literally dead and that Jehovah continues to leave the way open for them to return to him." Indeed, experience has shown that many who have left the truth eventually do return.—Luke 15:11-24.
Resist
self-blame. Parents especially may tend to look back and regret that they did not handle certain situations differently. However, the main thought conveyed at Ezekiel 18:20 is that Jehovah holds the sinner, not his parents, responsible for his wrong choice. Interestingly, while the book of Proverbs makes many comments about the parents’ obligation to bring up their children in the right way, it contains over four times as much counsel for young ones to listen to and obey their parents. Yes, children have the responsibility to respond to the Bible-based training of their imperfect parents. You likely handled matters as well as you could at the time. Still, even if you feel that you made certain mistakes and that these were indeed your fault, that does not necessarily mean that your mistakes caused your loved one to leave the truth. At any rate, there is nothing to be gained by indulging in "if onlys." Learn from your mistakes, determine not to repeat them, and pray to Jehovah for forgiveness. (Psalm 103:8-14; Isaiah 55:7) Then look to the future, not the past.
Be
patientwithothers. It may be hard for some to know just how to encourage or comfort you, especially if they have never had a similar experience. Besides, people differ as to what they consider encouraging and comforting. So if some say things that upset you, apply the apostle Paul’s counsel found at Colossians 3:13: "Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely if anyone has a cause for complaint against another."
Respect
Jehovah’sarrangementfordiscipline. If your relative has received discipline from the congregation, remember that this is part of Jehovah’s arrangement and is in the best interests of all, including the wrongdoer. (Hebrews 12:11) Therefore, resist any inclination to find fault with the elders who were involved or the decisions they made. Remember, the best results come from doing things Jehovah’s way, whereas opposing Jehovah’s arrangements can only result in added distress.
After Israel’s deliverance from Egypt, Moses regularly served as judge. (Exodus 18:13-16) Since a judgment in favor of one individual would probably have been against another, it is not hard to imagine that some were disappointed by Moses’ decisions. Finding fault with Moses’ judgments perhaps contributed to some instances of rebellion against his leadership. However, Jehovah was using Moses to lead His people, and He punished, not Moses, but the rebels and their families who supported them. (Numbers 16:31-35) We can learn from this by striving to respect and cooperate with decisions made by those with theocratic authority today.
In this regard, Delores recalls how difficult it was for her to maintain a balanced view when her daughter was disciplined by the congregation. "What helped me," she says, "was to read over and over again articles dealing with the reasonableness of Jehovah’s arrangements. I made a special notebook of points from talks and articles that would help me to bear up and carry on." This leads to another important means of coping.
Express
yourfeelings. You may find it helpful to confide in one or two understanding friends who have your trust. In doing so, select friends who will help you to maintain a positive attitude. It will certainly be most effective to "pour out your heart" in prayer to Jehovah. (Psalm 62:7, 8) Why? Because he fully understands the depth of what you are feeling. For example, you may feel that it is unfair that you should have to experience such emotional anguish. After all, you did not leave Jehovah. Commit your feelings to Jehovah, and ask him to help you view the situation in a less painful way.—Psalm 37:5.
With the passing of time, you will likely be better able to manage your feelings. Meanwhile, do not give up in your efforts to be pleasing to your heavenly Father, and never feel that these are in vain. (Galatians 6:9) Remember, if we were to leave Jehovah, we would still have problems. On the other hand, by remaining loyal to him, we have his help with the trials we face. Be assured, then, that Jehovah appreciates the magnitude of your situation and will continue to give you needed strength at the right time.—2 Corinthians 4:7; Philippians 4:13; Hebrews 4:16.

[Footnotes]
Some names have been changed.
Regarding praying in behalf of a disfellowshipped relative, see TheWatchtower, December 1, 2001, pages 30-1.

[Box
onpage 19]
How
toCope
?
"By building up yourselves . . . , keep yourselves in God’s love."—Jude 20, 21.

?
Do not give up hope.—1 Corinthians 13:7.

?
Resist self-blame.—Ezekiel 18:20.

?
Be patient with others.—Colossians 3:13.

?
Respect Jehovah’s arrangement for discipline.—Hebrews 12:11.

?
Express your feelings.—Psalm 62:7, 8.
[Box/Picture
onpage 21]
Have
YouLeftJehovah?
If so, whatever the reason, your relationship with Jehovah and your eternal prospects are at risk. Perhaps you intend to return to Jehovah. Are you vigorously pursuing this now? Or are you putting it off until "the right time"? Remember, the storm clouds of Armageddon are swiftly approaching. Moreover, life in this system is short and uncertain. You cannot know if you will even be alive tomorrow. (Psalm 102:3; James 4:13, 14) One man who was diagnosed with a terminal illness said: "This illness caught me serving Jehovah full-time, with no skeletons in my closet. And that’s a good feeling to have right now." Imagine, though, how he would have felt if his illness had caught him saying, "Someday, I will return to Jehovah!" If you have left Jehovah, now is the best time to return.
[Pictures
onpage 18]
Being absorbed in spiritual activities can help you keep the right perspective

And the second article from km 8/02 3-4, including the study questions:

Display
ChristianLoyaltyWhenaRelativeIsDisfellowshipped

1
The bond between family members can be very strong. This brings a test upon a Christian when a marriage mate, a child, a parent, or another close relative is disfellowshipped or has disassociated himself from the congregation. (Matt. 10:37) How should loyal Christians treat such a relative? Does it make a difference if the person lives in your household? First, let us review what the Bible says on this subject, the principles of which apply equally to those who are disfellowshipped and to those who disassociate themselves.
2
HowtoTreatExpelledOnes: God’s Word commands Christians not to keep company or fellowship with a person who has been expelled from the congregation: "Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. . . . Remove the wicked man from among yourselves." (1 Cor. 5:11, 13) Jesus’ words recorded at Matthew 18:17 also bear on the matter: "Let [the expelled one] be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector." Jesus’ hearers well knew that the Jews of that day had no fraternization with Gentiles and that they shunned tax collectors as outcasts. Jesus was thus instructing his followers not to associate with expelled ones.—See TheWatchtower of September 15, 1981, pages 18-20.
3
This means that loyal Christians do not have spiritual fellowship with anyone who has been expelled from the congregation. But more is involved. God’s Word states that we should ‘noteveneatwithsuchaman.’ (1 Cor. 5:11) Hence, we also avoid social fellowship with an expelled person. This would rule out joining him in a picnic, party, ball game, or trip to the mall or theater or sitting down to a meal with him either in the home or at a restaurant.
4
What about speaking with a disfellowshipped person? While the Bible does not cover every possible situation, 2 John 10 helps us to get Jehovah’s view of matters: "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him." Commenting on this, TheWatchtower of September 15, 1981, page 25, says: "A simple ‘Hello’ to someone can be the first step that develops into a conversation and maybe even a friendship. Would we want to take that first step with a disfellowshiped person?"
5
Indeed, it is just as page 31 of the same issue of TheWatchtower states: "The fact is that when a Christian gives himself over to sin and has to be disfellowshiped, he forfeits much: his approved standing with God; . . . sweet fellowship with the brothers, including much of the association he had with Christian relatives."
6
IntheImmediateHousehold: Does this mean that Christians living in the same household with a disfellowshipped family member are to avoid talking to, eating with, and associating with that one as they go about their daily activities? TheWatchtower of April 15, 1991, in the footnote on page 22, states: "If in a Christian’s household there is a disfellowshipped relative, that one would still be part of the normal, day-to-day household dealings and activities." Thus, it would be left up to members of the family to decide on the extent to which the disfellowshipped family member would be included when eating or engaging in other household activities. And yet, they would not want to give brothers with whom they associate the impression that everything is the same as it was before the disfellowshipping occurred.
7
However, TheWatchtower of September 15, 1981, page 28, points out regarding the disfellowshipped or disassociated person: "Former spiritual ties have been completely severed. This is true even with respect to his relatives, including those within his immediate family circle. . . . That will mean changes in the spiritual fellowship that may have existed in the home. For example, if the husband is disfellowshiped, his wife and children will not be comfortable with him conducting a family Bible study or leading in Bible reading and prayer. If he wants to say a prayer, such as at mealtime, he has a right to do so in his own home. But they can silently offer their own prayers to God. (Prov. 28:9; Ps. 119:145, 146) What if a disfellowshiped person in the home wants to be present when the family reads the Bible together or has a Bible study? The others might let him be present to listen if he will not try to teach them or share his religious ideas."
8
If a minor child living in the home is disfellowshipped, Christian parents are still responsible for his upbringing. TheWatchtower of November 15, 1988, page 20, states: "Just as they will continue to provide him with food, clothing, and shelter, they need to instruct and discipline him in line with God’s Word. (Proverbs 6:20-22; 29:17) Loving parents may thus arrange to have a home Bible study with him, even if he is disfellowshipped. Maybe he will derive the most corrective benefit from their studying with him alone. Or they may decide that he can continue to share in the family study arrangement."—See also TheWatchtower of October 1, 2001, pages 16-17.
9
RelativesNotintheHousehold: "The situation is different if the disfellowshipped or disassociated one is a relative living outside the immediate family circle and home," states TheWatchtower of April 15, 1988, page 28. "It might be possible to have almost no contact at all with the relative. Even if there were some family matters requiring contact, this certainly would be kept to a minimum," in harmony with the divine injunction to "quit mixing in company with anyone" who is guilty of sinning unrepentantly. (1 Cor. 5:11) Loyal Christians should strive to avoid needless association with such a relative, even keeping business dealings to an absolute minimum.—See also TheWatchtower of September 15, 1981, pages 29-30.
10
TheWatchtower addresses another situation that can arise: "What if a close relative, such as a son or a parent who does not live in the home, is disfellowshiped and subsequently wants to move back there? The family could decide what to do depending on the situation. For example, a disfellowshiped parent may be sick or no longer able to care for himself financially or physically. The Christian children have a Scriptural and moral obligation to assist. (1 Tim. 5:8) . . . What is done may depend on factors such as the parent’s true needs, his attitude and the regard the head of the household has for the spiritual welfare of the household."—TheWatchtower of September 15, 1981, pages 28-9.
11
As for a child, the same article continues: "Sometimes Christian parents have accepted back into the home for a time a disfellowshiped child who has become physically or emotionally ill. But in each case the parents can weigh the individual circumstances. Has a disfellowshiped son lived on his own, and is he now unable to do so? Or does he want to move back primarily because it would be an easier life? What about his morals and attitude? Will he bring ‘leaven’ into the home?—Gal. 5:9."
12
BenefitsofBeingLoyaltoJehovah: Cooperating with the Scriptural arrangement to disfellowship and shun unrepentant wrongdoers is beneficial. It preserves the cleanness of the congregation and distinguishes us as upholders of the Bible’s high moral standards. (1 Pet. 1:14-16) It protects us from corrupting influences. (Gal. 5:7-9) It also affords the wrongdoer an opportunity to benefit fully from the discipline received, which can help him to produce "peaceable fruit, namely, righteousness."—Heb. 12:11.
13
After hearing a talk at a circuit assembly, a brother and his fleshly sister realized that they needed to make adjustments in the way they treated their mother, who lived elsewhere and who had been disfellowshipped for six years. Immediately after the assembly, the man called his mother, and after assuring her of their love, he explained that they could no longer talk to her unless there were important family matters requiring contact. Shortly thereafter, his mother began attending meetings and was eventually reinstated. Also, her unbelieving husband began studying and in time was baptized.
14
Loyally upholding the disfellowshipping arrangement outlined in the Scriptures demonstrates our love for Jehovah and provides an answer to the one that is taunting Him. (Prov. 27:11) In turn, we can be assured of Jehovah’s blessing. King David wrote regarding Jehovah: "As for his statutes, I shall not turn aside from them. With someone loyal you will act in loyalty."—2 Sam. 22:23, 26.
[Study
Questions]

1. What situation can test a Christian’s loyalty?
2. According to the Bible, how are Christians to treat those expelled from the congregation?
3, 4. What sort of fellowship with disfellowshipped and disassociated people is forbidden?

5. When disfellowshipped, what does a person forfeit?
6. Is a Christian required to cut off all association with a disfellowshipped relative living in the same household? Explain.
7. How does spiritual fellowship within the home change when a family member is disfellowshipped?
8. What responsibility do Christian parents have toward a minor disfellowshipped child living in the home?
9. To what extent should a Christian have contact with a disfellowshipped relative living outside the home?
10, 11. What will a Christian consider before allowing a disfellowshipped relative to move into the home?
12. What are some benefits of the disfellowshipping arrangement?
13. What adjustment did one family make, and with what result?
14. Why should we loyally support the disfellowshipping arrangement?

These were copied directly from the 2006 WT Library CD-ROM and are the current views from the Society on the matter.

Erandir

51

Was There Any Watchtower Interpretation That You Never Quite Understood?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i knew what the watchtower taught regarding the "faithful & discreet slave class" but how they could ever suggest that "domestics" were "individual members" of the anointed that were given food to the other anointed ones, yet they specifically were not members of the governing body, but the governing body represented the group that would take the lead in feeding others, was beyond me!

the whole interpretation of the fds doctrine is ridiculous!.

were there certain things that puzzled you as to how the watchtower could come up with a particular view?

erandir

When I was 8, I asked the midst of a book study how a person could be brought back to life in the resurrection after being non-existent. The Society was claiming that a person non-existent in death was at the same time preserved in God's memory in a fashion similar to audiotape or film. I said that I didn't understand this because these things preserve only a copy of the person, but not the person himself/herself. It seemed almost as if a copy of me would be resurrected, not me. The study conductor did not answer my question to my satisfaction. The Society never has as well.

Leolaia, OMG, finally someone who thinks the same thing I have! I've had this conversation with my wife over and over, but she doesn't get it. If I die and decompose, that is it. Any recreation of that body would be a copy of me. Someone else running around with my memories. Unless something of my current existance survived and passed on to this new shell, I don't see how it would be possible for that new person to be me and that I would know it. This, in my opinion, would be "proof" of the soul's existence.

Then there are other philosophical issues tied into this. How is it that I know I exist...self awareness? When I die, will I know I am dead? What will happen to my memories if I stay dead? Or is the fact that I have memories and am self aware proof that I have a soul that will never die? Is the current moment in time that I experience right now just memories I'm reliving on my death bed or in heaven or in the afterlife?

But true, the watchtower doesn't have a satisfying explanation for resurrection and also for why we don't have an immortal soul for sure. Just because the bible says so is not a good enough reason. The bible needs to fully explain why or why not.

7

New WT Library CD-ROM

by deaconbluez in

jw
friends

anybody know when the next one will be released?

erandir

Or you could just wait for it to become available online as an iso image file, get yourself a virtual cd-rom drive software, and then install it onto your computer like I did with the WTLib 2006. Of course, I could just ask my wife to order one from the literature counter, but where is the fun in that?

3

Is voting a conscience matter or a matter of disassociation?

by erandir in

here is what a questions from readers in the nov 1, 1999, watchtower says:.

questionsfromreaders.

howdojehovahswitnessesviewvoting?.

erandir

So it is not really a personal decision. In other words, the body of elders will help you "correct" your decision should you decide to vote in a land where voting is not compulsory.

Yet they still call it a personal decision when in reality, they've made the decision for you and the only personal element left is whether or not you want to lose your family and friends depending on your choice.

Where I come from, saying something is a personal decision means that ultimately you get to decide for yourself and no one should get to tell you if that decision is good or bad. It's personal and no one's business what your decision is and why you made it.

So basically, the Watchtower is underhandedly telling its members not to vote but making it look like they aren't.

9

Who do JWs believe will be resurrected?

by M.J. in

i've heard opinions on the matter ranging from the vast majority of humanity who is dead before the big a, to the viewpoint that there will be a very selective and exclusive resurrection.

what is the current wts teaching on the matter?

is it only small number of of people who directly and "actively opposed jehovah", thus committing the "unforgivable sin" who will not be resurrected?

erandir

Some who have died in direct opposition to Jehovah in the past will stay dusty. Only Jw's will survive to watch the billions who don't become Jw's be eaten by carrion.

Not: Adam and Eve, Sodom and Gommorrah, Judas, those that impaled Christ (the jewish religious leaders) and anyone that dies at Armageddon.

These are a couple good quotes representing the official view of the Society at the moment. However, there are many of the rank & file and even elders who disagree, albeit secretly or in closed circles. There is no way to know for sure who won't get resurrected and who will. Assuming the resurrection is a sure thing for some and not going to happen for others is folly. After all, there's that scripture, Zephaniah 2:3, that says "probably" you will be saved in the day of Jehovah.

Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger.

So I imagine if the society can't be sure about who will be resurrected, then they cannot be sure of who won't. It is debated in some circles as to whether or not the new information concerning Judas is valid or not. The argument goes that he betrayed Jesus, so he won't be resurrected. Others say he was so remorseful, even repentant, that he killed himself. (Apparently by hanging himself and then having his rope break so that he fell and burst his guts all over some field somewhere, but that's another topic about bible contradiction.)

3

Is voting a conscience matter or a matter of disassociation?

by erandir in

here is what a questions from readers in the nov 1, 1999, watchtower says:.

questionsfromreaders.

howdojehovahswitnessesviewvoting?.

erandir

Here is what a Questions from Readers in the Nov 1, 1999, Watchtower says:

Questions
FromReaders
How
doJehovah’sWitnessesviewvoting?
There are clear principles set out in the Bible that enable servants of God to take a proper view of this matter. However, there appears to be no principle against the practice of voting itself. For example, there is no reason why a board of directors should not take a vote in order to arrive at decisions affecting their corporation. Congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses often make decisions about meeting times and the use of congregation funds by voting with a show of hands.
What, though, of voting in political elections? Of course, in some democratic lands, as many as 50 percent of the population do not turn out to vote on election day. As for Jehovah’s Witnesses, they do not interfere with the right of others to vote; neither do they in any way campaign against political elections. They respect and cooperate with the authorities who are duly elected in such elections. (Romans 13:1-7) As to whether they will personally vote for someone running in an election, each one of Jehovah’s Witnesses makes a decision based on his Bible-trained conscience and an understanding of his responsibility to God and to the State. (Matthew 22:21; 1 Peter 3:16) In making this personal decision, the Witnesses consider a number of factors.
First, Jesus Christ said of his followers: "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." (John 17:14) Jehovah’s Witnesses take this principle seriously. Being "no part of the world," they are neutral in the political affairs of the world.—John 18:36.
Second, the apostle Paul referred to himself as an "ambassador" representing Christ to the people of his day. (Ephesians 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:20) Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Christ Jesus is now the enthroned King of God’s heavenly Kingdom, and they, like ambassadors, must announce this to the nations. (Matthew 24:14; Revelation 11:15) Ambassadors are expected to be neutral and not to interfere in the internal affairs of the countries to which they are sent. As representatives of God’s heavenly Kingdom, Jehovah’s Witnesses feel a similar obligation not to interfere in the politics of the countries where they reside.
A third factor to consider is that those who have a part in voting a person into office may become responsible for what he does. (Compare 1 Timothy 5:22, TheNewEnglishBible.) Christians have to consider carefully whether they want to shoulder that responsibility.
Fourth, Jehovah’s Witnesses greatly value their Christian unity. (Colossians 3:14) When religions get involved in politics, the result is often division among their members. In imitation of Jesus Christ, Jehovah’s Witnesses avoid becoming involved in politics and thus maintain their Christian unity.—Matthew 12:25; John 6:15; 18:36, 37.
Fifth and finally, their keeping out of politics gives Jehovah’s Witnesses freeness of speech to approach people of all political persuasions with the important message of the Kingdom.—Hebrews 10:35.
In view of the Scriptural principles outlined above, in many lands Jehovah’s Witnesses make a personal decision not to vote in political elections, and their freedom to make that decision is supported by the law of the land. What, though, if the law requires citizens to vote? In such a case, each Witness is responsible to make a conscientious, Bible-based decision about how to handle the situation. If someone decides to go to the polling booth, that is his decision. What he does in the polling booth is between him and his Creator.
The November 15, 1950, issue of TheWatchtower, on pages 445 and 446, said: "Where Caesar makes it compulsory for citizens to vote . . . [Witnesses] can go to the polls and enter the voting booths. It is here that they are called upon to mark the ballot or write in what they stand for. The voters do what they will with their ballots. So here in the presence of God is where his witnesses must act in harmony with his commandments and in accordance with their faith. It is not our responsibility to instruct them what to do with the ballot."
What if a Christian woman’s unbelieving husband insists that she present herself to vote? Well, she is subject to her husband, just as Christians are subject to the superior authorities. (Ephesians 5:22; 1 Peter 2:13-17) If she obeys her husband and goes to the polling booth, that is her personal decision. No one should criticize her.—Compare Romans 14:4.
What of a country where voting is not mandated by law but feelings run high against those who do not go to the voting booth—perhaps they are exposed to physical danger? Or what if individuals, while not legally obliged to vote, are severely penalized in some way if they do not go to the polling booth? In these and similar situations, a Christian has to make his own decision. "Each one will carry his own load."—Galatians 6:5.
There may be people who are stumbled when they observe that during an election in their country, some Witnesses of Jehovah go to the polling booth and others do not. They may say, ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses are not consistent.’ People should recognize, though, that in matters of individual conscience such as this, each Christian has to make his own decision before Jehovah God.—Romans 14:12.
Whatever personal decisions Jehovah’s Witnesses make in the face of different situations, they take care to preserve their Christian neutrality and freeness of speech. In all things, they rely on Jehovah God to strengthen them, give them wisdom, and help them avoid compromising their faith in any way. Thus they show confidence in the words of the psalmist: "You are my crag and my stronghold; and for the sake of your name you will lead me and conduct me."—Psalm 31:3.

In a couple places it is mentioned that voting is a conscience matter. But is it a conscience matter if a witness is in physical danger if s/he doesn't vote? Or is it a conscience matter in all situations involving voting?

What about claims that voting is a disassociating or disfellowshipping offense? Anyone have any anecdotes or other sources of information on this?

23

CYA tactics in BOE Letters - verrrry interrrestingk!

by Scully in

letter to elders, dated march 24, 2000. in reporting cases when individuals have disassociated themselves by engaging in nonneutral activities, the following direction should be followed.. the implication of their action should be reported in harmony with scriptural guidelines.

therefore, when completing the s-77 form, please use such expressions as "violated neutrality" or "took a nonneutral course.

" isaiah 2:4 and john 15:17-19 support these descriptions, as pointed out on page 101 of pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock.

erandir

I think it was the June 15 WT 1999 (or 1991???) that said that voting is a conscience issue...

Anyone have that quote? I do not have the CD rom.

-K

Kudra...here is what I found on the matter...hope it is helpful. It is from a Questions from Readers in 11/01/99 WT.

Questions
FromReaders
How
doJehovah’sWitnessesviewvoting?
There are clear principles set out in the Bible that enable servants of God to take a proper view of this matter. However, there appears to be no principle against the practice of voting itself. For example, there is no reason why a board of directors should not take a vote in order to arrive at decisions affecting their corporation. Congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses often make decisions about meeting times and the use of congregation funds by voting with a show of hands.
What, though, of voting in political elections? Of course, in some democratic lands, as many as 50 percent of the population do not turn out to vote on election day. As for Jehovah’s Witnesses, they do not interfere with the right of others to vote; neither do they in any way campaign against political elections. They respect and cooperate with the authorities who are duly elected in such elections. (Romans 13:1-7) As to whether they will personally vote for someone running in an election, each one of Jehovah’s Witnesses makes a decision based on his Bible-trained conscience and an understanding of his responsibility to God and to the State. (Matthew 22:21; 1 Peter 3:16) In making this personal decision, the Witnesses consider a number of factors.
First, Jesus Christ said of his followers: "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." (John 17:14) Jehovah’s Witnesses take this principle seriously. Being "no part of the world," they are neutral in the political affairs of the world.—John 18:36.
Second, the apostle Paul referred to himself as an "ambassador" representing Christ to the people of his day. (Ephesians 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:20) Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Christ Jesus is now the enthroned King of God’s heavenly Kingdom, and they, like ambassadors, must announce this to the nations. (Matthew 24:14; Revelation 11:15) Ambassadors are expected to be neutral and not to interfere in the internal affairs of the countries to which they are sent. As representatives of God’s heavenly Kingdom, Jehovah’s Witnesses feel a similar obligation not to interfere in the politics of the countries where they reside.
A third factor to consider is that those who have a part in voting a person into office may become responsible for what he does. (Compare 1 Timothy 5:22, TheNewEnglishBible.) Christians have to consider carefully whether they want to shoulder that responsibility.
Fourth, Jehovah’s Witnesses greatly value their Christian unity. (Colossians 3:14) When religions get involved in politics, the result is often division among their members. In imitation of Jesus Christ, Jehovah’s Witnesses avoid becoming involved in politics and thus maintain their Christian unity.—Matthew 12:25; John 6:15; 18:36, 37.
Fifth and finally, their keeping out of politics gives Jehovah’s Witnesses freeness of speech to approach people of all political persuasions with the important message of the Kingdom.—Hebrews 10:35.
In view of the Scriptural principles outlined above, in many lands Jehovah’s Witnesses make a personal decision not to vote in political elections, and their freedom to make that decision is supported by the law of the land. What, though, if the law requires citizens to vote? In such a case, each Witness is responsible to make a conscientious, Bible-based decision about how to handle the situation. If someone decides to go to the polling booth, that is his decision. What he does in the polling booth is between him and his Creator.
The November 15, 1950, issue of TheWatchtower, on pages 445 and 446, said: "Where Caesar makes it compulsory for citizens to vote . . . [Witnesses] can go to the polls and enter the voting booths. It is here that they are called upon to mark the ballot or write in what they stand for. The voters do what they will with their ballots. So here in the presence of God is where his witnesses must act in harmony with his commandments and in accordance with their faith. It is not our responsibility to instruct them what to do with the ballot."
What if a Christian woman’s unbelieving husband insists that she present herself to vote? Well, she is subject to her husband, just as Christians are subject to the superior authorities. (Ephesians 5:22; 1 Peter 2:13-17) If she obeys her husband and goes to the polling booth, that is her personal decision. No one should criticize her.—Compare Romans 14:4.
What of a country where voting is not mandated by law but feelings run high against those who do not go to the voting booth—perhaps they are exposed to physical danger? Or what if individuals, while not legally obliged to vote, are severely penalized in some way if they do not go to the polling booth? In these and similar situations, a Christian has to make his own decision. "Each one will carry his own load."—Galatians 6:5.
There may be people who are stumbled when they observe that during an election in their country, some Witnesses of Jehovah go to the polling booth and others do not. They may say, ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses are not consistent.’ People should recognize, though, that in matters of individual conscience such as this, each Christian has to make his own decision before Jehovah God.—Romans 14:12.
Whatever personal decisions Jehovah’s Witnesses make in the face of different situations, they take care to preserve their Christian neutrality and freeness of speech. In all things, they rely on Jehovah God to strengthen them, give them wisdom, and help them avoid compromising their faith in any way. Thus they show confidence in the words of the psalmist: "You are my crag and my stronghold; and for the sake of your name you will lead me and conduct me."—Psalm 31:3.

I love how the article says it is a personal decision not to vote, but the implication is that if you are a Jehovah's Witness, then you MUST make it your "personal" decision not to vote. Otherwise, you'll not be a true Jehovah's Witness.

They are claiming that voting is a conscience matter, but if it were known that a witness made a practice of voting, that witness would stumble others. So...do witnesses really have the freedom of conscience or is it implied that a good witness's conscience should never let him do something wrong?

I think this would make an excellent topic for a new thread...so I'm going to do so.