Posts by Englishman

43

New Congregation

by Deacon in

jw
friends

ok. we ran a thread recently about starting a new religion.. how about we start an international congregation here on the board.. we need 7 elders.

7 being a sign of perfection..er....yeah.. we need ministerial servants.. appointments will be general concensus..er holy spirit i mean.. p.o.

lets start with him.

I think that we should have a bar in the KH. Maybe even ash trays for the smokers. Oh yes, how about a contraceptive machine in the toilets. Stools would be nice too. A dartboard for the boring moments, a skittle alley for the competetive one's plus lot of soothing music. Kingdom songs re-written, maybe "Hi Ho Silver Lining" becoming "Hi Ho Wicked Apostates".

With apologies to Farkel and Jeff Beck,

Englishman.

PS, If the above sounds like a pub, then you are absolutely correct!

..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.

272

McVeigh vs Death Penalty

by Amazing in

jw
friends

i am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.

i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.

and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.

Englishman

Ros,

I take your point about a discussion that can finish up just going round in circles, I guess that I'm wearying of this one somewhat.

I don't know how I would re-act if I was called on to fight for my country. My grandfather fought in the trenches in WW1, my father was an RAF bomb-aimer in WW2. They were both affected by their experiences. I know that when England re-took the Falklands from Argentina I was busting a gut to go. Now I think that I would not be so taken in by Nationalist hype. I'm too old now anyway.

Re China, no, it isn't a religious society, but it doesn't claim to be a compassionate country either. My point is that religious societies as a whole are amongst the most judgemental and punishing groups in any country. There's something of the old "eye for an eye" about them.

I'm not going to comment further on this subject unless it takes a fresh direction, I'm very much aware that I live where there is no capital punishment and it's easy to criticise from afar.

Englishman.

..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.

272

McVeigh vs Death Penalty

by Amazing in

jw
friends

i am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.

i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.

and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.

Englishman

Rutht,

UK crimes re theft of property are indeed up. However, violent crime is diminishing, some `experts` believe that this is due to our society tending to lean more towards humanism and less towards God.

Most religions will not give away their stance on the death penalty, preferring to leave their accolytes room to maoeuvre the subject to its best useage. In the 60's & 70's the WTBTS upheld the death penalty, their stance was that murderers must die, I even recall a case of a death-row inmate who became converted to witnessism stopping his own appeal process because he was convinced that, as a now good JW, he should die. This was regailed to us at a district assembly as part of "Songs and Experiences".

Englishman.

..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.

272

McVeigh vs Death Penalty

by Amazing in

jw
friends

i am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.

i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.

and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.

Englishman

Ros,

I would definitely say that England is less fervently religious than the United States. People over here seem to recoil from organised religion.

It does seem that the more fundamentalist a society is in terms of its religion the more vigorously it enforces ‘punishment’ for breaking that society’s laws e.g. capital punishment.

A more liberal and less fundamentalist society tends to be more tolerant and recognises individuality and diversity. These societies are usually ‘softer’ in their treatment of criminals.

So, why is this? It could be because religious fundamentalism demands a mental and emotional rigidity that requires regulated and obedient behaviour from everyone. People who do not follow a rigid religious doctrine have the capacity to believe people can change and would rather educate than punish. They would rather that people saw the sense in following laws than instil fear or social retribution e.g. capital punishment.

When I hear that religions condone capital punishment I question whether they are really serving their God or whether they are merely aligning with social leaders to control their society. Marx may have had a point. Religious organisations are more to do with man and power here on earth than with spiritual issues. The Bible I know is full of contradictions, but few Christians would disagree that love and forgiveness is an overriding theme. Capital punishment is unforgiving, it is judgemental, it is final, and it is about man – not God.

Englishman.

..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.

272

McVeigh vs Death Penalty

by Amazing in

jw
friends

i am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.

i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.

and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.

Englishman

Terraly,

You make some excellent points. Maybe the people who are living in societies that still execute their citizens need to take a long hard look at themselves. There is a communal responsibility in a democratic society, maybe more people need to question their elected representatives about their stance on capital punishment BEFORE giving them their vote.

Aside from that, I have already drawn comparisons between pro-execution individuals and the WTBTS. My reason is that it seems to me that religious societies tend not to hold the saving of life as being important, the individual being downgraded as unimportant when compared to the religious ideology that so many hold dear.

I wonder then, if the US were somewhat less religious, would it also lose it zeal for the death penalty? After all, the enthusiasm with which religious people condemn the world as a whole, their prophecies of death to most of mankind - imagine, if you will, You Know wreaking havoc with his ass's jawbone - isn't it religious people who are some of capital punishments staunchest supporters?

Englishman.

..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.

272

McVeigh vs Death Penalty

by Amazing in

jw
friends

i am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.

i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.

and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.

Englishman

Farkel,

Brilliant! The most avid supporters of the death penalty are, indeed, non other than Jehovah's witnesses, who, more than an other group, cheapen life to being a privelege to which we are not entitled.

Please also note that YK, Friday and Fred Hall have scuttled behind the woodwork whilst those of us who are more enlightened have had the courage to debate this issue.

One wonders how YK will fit this subject into his amusing "Down with Apostates!" sketches now that those of us who have a greater degree of maturity and experience are able to reconcile our differences in an amiable manner.

Englishman.

..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.

272

McVeigh vs Death Penalty

by Amazing in

jw
friends

i am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.

i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.

and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.

Englishman

Cowboy,

I don't agree. Legalised killing only makes violence more common place, more the norm.

Just in case anyone thinks that I'm a bleeding heart, you couldn't be more wrong. I would kill to defend my family. My argument is that the state should be above this sort of thing, instead it panders to basic instincts of retribution seeking whilst it gives in to populism.

During the 1700's, there were, in the UK, literally hundreds of different crimes for which one could be hanged, including stealing a loaf of bread. Bread was still stolen, deer was still poached, proving that the idea of the death penalty being a deterrent was based on a false premise.

The death penalty does not a decent society make.

Englishman.

..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.

13

"Patterson" Pictures

by ZazuWitts in

jw
friends

since registering with this forum, i have heard many mention the patterson complex.

having been 'out' since pre-1975, this facility was news to me.

came across this link, and thought i would share it with other.

Englishman

This is what it looks like to me:

LEGOLAND!

Englishman.
..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.

272

McVeigh vs Death Penalty

by Amazing in

jw
friends

i am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.

i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.

and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.

Englishman

Roaming feline,

I'm not at all opposed to people defending themselves and agree that the law leans too heavily on the rights of the criminal.

I am, however opposed to legal killing. Most civilised societies are. I am stunned at Amazings attitude particularly in view of the intelligent stuff of his that I usually enjoy reading.

Englishman.

..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.

272

McVeigh vs Death Penalty

by Amazing in

jw
friends

i am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.

i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.

and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.

Englishman

Amazing,

Most of what I wanted to say has been amply covered by Tina and Mommy.

Re the US having 250 million people to handle, Europe without a death penalty has many more than that and, believe me, incredible diversity.

Take the Irish problem, would any progress have been made if the UK had executed the guy who murdered Prince Charles uncle, Lord Mountbatten, or the bombers who blew up the Conservative party conference in Brighton? How about the comparatively recent outrage in Armagh?

I think that the US will have to abandon capital punishment fairly soon, the "tough on crime" election ticket that is exploited by politicians will soon be seen as the fraud that it is, an excuse so as to cover up the real social issue that are raised by poverty and drugs.

Englishman.

..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.