History shows the rise and fall of many peoples. It seems to be a cycle.
Lets hope their "fall" isn't too far down the road.
boyzone
JoinedPosts by boyzone
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43
Where did the Watchtower Org learn its Mind Control techniques ?
by wobble inthis is a little where and when, i am not widely read in chuck russells stuff or rutherfords,the former is quite looney and the latter makes me want to up-chuck.. but i get the impression, i must admit more from isolated quotes rather than proper reading, that chuck hardly used mind-control,apart from trying to convince that his strange interpretation of scripture was correct,and even rutherford didn't use it so much,although the signs are there.. so when,and where from ,did they learn the mind control methods they use,that are so similar to all the other cults, is there a college course being run somewhere on how to build and control your own cult?.
and do the g.b take extra lessons in it, and pass them on to all members of the writing committee?
and then down the ranks,the d.os and c.os certainly use it,and i don't believe it is un-consciously,they are taught.. any ideas ?
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boyzone
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WT Society Makes JW's Feel Bad about Themselves - No Self Worth
by flipper ini have noticed this a lot in attitudes of witness relatives i've talked with over the last few years , as well as other former witness friends i have talked to.
many witnesses feel bad about themselves due to having it drilled into them that we are all " sinners " who allegedly inherited " sin and imperfection " from adam and eve .
that essentially humans are " born dead " or in a " dying " condition due to alleged " inherited sin " .
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boyzone
ALL TIME JEFF- I agree. It is horribly mentally unhealthy to always feel guilt over things. I remember hearing fellow witnesses talk about how inadequate they felt, or guilty they couldn't do more because of debilitating illness. I'd just tell them, " Don't be so hard on yourself- Jehovah appreciates what you do ! " But they were getting a DIFFERENT message from the WT society. They were being told it WASN"T good enough ! Bastards.
I agree with your comments to Jeff here Mr Flip. When I was "encouraged" with the words "don't be so hard on yourself", the first thing I thought of was the words of Peter when he said to Jesus "Be kind to yourself Lord". Remember Jesus reply? He said, "get behind me Satan, you think not God's thoughts bu those of men".
So as crazy as it sounds, not only is the guilt piled on by the Society, but its as if the bible was endorsing it too. Anyone who told me to ease up became like Satan to me.
God, how crazy is that! No wonder the guilt can be such a crushing weight for some. You hate yourself for failing, the Society dump on you for failing, then it seems as if the bible does too. Its a wonder any of us are still sane.
Thanks for your lovely reply to me, I really appreciate it. Its good to be alive!
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Germany, Octogenerian enters KH with Machine Gun
by skeeter1 inpensioner enters jehovah's witness church with machine gunpublished: 31 jul 09 09:13 cet.
an 82-year-old man who entered a meeting of jehovahs witnesses armed with a submachine gun, three magazines, a samurai sword and a knife has been arrested, bielefeld police reported on friday.. some 81 members of the church were gathered in their kingdom hall on dunlopstrae in the citys sennestadt district when a congregation member noticed the masked elderly man enter the vestibule waving the machine gun around 8:45 pm on thursday.. .
the witness quietly informed the congregation and directed them to escape the building via emergency exit, a police statement said.. .
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boyzone
I agree with Mary on this one. The stress of being shunned has driven me to act out of character in moments of despair so I can imagine how an elderly man in his 80's might feel. This guy may be sick and not have long to live. He may love and miss his daughter and desperately wants to see her before he goes. He may be a widower and lonely for his family. Admittedly a machine gun is a bit OTT but we're all aware of just how shunning can affect any one of us and make us act out of character.
I expect he deeply regrets his actions but they were the actions of a desperate man, and we all know where that stems from..
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Your thoughtful opinion is requested, please, on a possible proposal to free my wife from JWs
by lifelong humanist insix years 'jw free', my wife is still in, although she's now nowhere neary as zealous as i was when in.
for this i'm grateful.. please take a moment to review my current situation as far as my wife's involvement is concerned with our 4, adult male children:.
my wife regularly contacts my dfd son, invites him and his wife to visit us, along with their 4 year old son, and thinks absolutely nothing of it!
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boyzone
Hi Lifelong, you've been given some sound advice which I'm sure will help you.
But as a side point, I don't think writing a letter to the elders complaining that your wife is associating with 2 of your sons holds much credibility. The elders are bound to think your a total loon for wanting your wife councilled on this issue. They're gonna think "do you want her to shun them???"
And just suppose it backfires on you and your wife accepts the council? Your family is split apart and you've lost all the ground and all the good you've gained so far. No, there's a better way. Be patient and keep her involved with the lives of your sons and grandchildren as much as possible. The lsee time devoted to congregation activities, the better.
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WHY ALL THE QUESTIONS ?
by iknowall558 in" acts 22 : 16. what are you waiting for.........?
the ethiopian eunuch had this attitude when peter preached jesus to him.
he immediately requested and received baptism.
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boyzone
What still rankles with me is the 2 biggie questions your supposed to stand and answer yes to.
On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
Ok, haven't really got a problem with that one.
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovahs Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?
Got BIG problems with this one. For a start it reads like a contract from some dodgy insurance deal. Then the clincher, Holy Spirit being totally replaced by "God's spirit-directed organization".
Do you remember saying yes to those 2? Yeah, me too. Did you have any idea what you were really saying yes to? No, me neither.
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Where does WT says Jesus is not a mediator for other sheep...
by Albert Einstein inwe opened a discussion with my wife today at brakfast about jesus being a mediator for anointed only according wt, and not for the other sheep, ... she said "no way, never heard about that..." we decided to discuss it more detailed in the evening.... i know some quotes, but do you have some as well???....
saying fds is a mediator for the other sheep instead of jesus..... .
albert.
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Where does WT says Jesus is not a mediator for other sheep...
by Albert Einstein inwe opened a discussion with my wife today at brakfast about jesus being a mediator for anointed only according wt, and not for the other sheep, ... she said "no way, never heard about that..." we decided to discuss it more detailed in the evening.... i know some quotes, but do you have some as well???....
saying fds is a mediator for the other sheep instead of jesus..... .
albert.
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boyzone
*** Watchtower 1979 April 1 p.31 Questions from Readers ***
Questions from Readers
• Is Jesus the "mediator" only for anointed Christians?
The term "mediator" occurs just six times in the Christian Greek Scriptures and Scripturally is always used regarding a formal covenant.
Moses was the "mediator" of the Law covenant made between God and the nation of Israel. (Gal. 3:19, 20) Christ, though, is the "mediator of a new covenant" between Jehovah and spiritual Israel, the "Israel of God" that will serve as kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24; Gal. 6:16) At a time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the "one mediator between God and men." (1 Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word "mediator" in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is "mediator." So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians.
The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant. During the millennium Jesus Christ will be their king, high priest and judge. For more detailed information, see Aid to Bible Understanding, pages 1129 and 1130 under "Mediator"; also God's "Eternal Purpose" Now Triumphing for Man's Good, page 160, paragraph 10; also The Watchtower issues of February 15, 1966, pages 105 through 123; November 15, 1972, pages 685 and 686, under the subheading "Leading the Way to a New Covenant"; and April 1, 1973, pages 198 and 199, under the subheading "The New Covenant."
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Where did the Watchtower Org learn its Mind Control techniques ?
by wobble inthis is a little where and when, i am not widely read in chuck russells stuff or rutherfords,the former is quite looney and the latter makes me want to up-chuck.. but i get the impression, i must admit more from isolated quotes rather than proper reading, that chuck hardly used mind-control,apart from trying to convince that his strange interpretation of scripture was correct,and even rutherford didn't use it so much,although the signs are there.. so when,and where from ,did they learn the mind control methods they use,that are so similar to all the other cults, is there a college course being run somewhere on how to build and control your own cult?.
and do the g.b take extra lessons in it, and pass them on to all members of the writing committee?
and then down the ranks,the d.os and c.os certainly use it,and i don't believe it is un-consciously,they are taught.. any ideas ?
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boyzone
Wasn't it the Knorr era that the real power of disfellowshipping came to the fore? I think it was Ray Franz that said the majority of the GB meetings was to discuss whether something was a "disfellowshipping offence" or not.
Ever since then, the need to keep the rank and file under control is just the same but has to be done more subtly. People are more clued up and cynical now, they have more info at their fingertips, so the Society have had to learn the art of careful manipulation and sophistry to keep the level of control they once had. Also life is more complicated now, there are so many variables in peoples lives to keep track of that the Society have a plethora of rules for virtually every circumstance. For these rules to be accepted, they have to be delivered in a palatable manner that won't arouse suspicion that they don't know what they're talking about.
I don't believe the techniques of mind control haven't been sat down and deliberately learned, but they've evolved out of the need to keep that control. The techniques have to be employed more and more often as the Witnesses become more savvy. That's why I believe the Governing Body have "a tiger by the tail" in this organization. They've created a monster that'll one day turn round and destroy them. It'll implode up its own arse as more and more witnesses gradually realise they're being duped by the man behind the curtain.
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Hello id like to intruduce myself
by Belly inive been lurking this site for quite a while but for some reason never could muster up the courage to post.. let me give a little background on my self.. i am 18 and male an still living with my parents.
i was baptised at 15 basically against my will (by cracking under the pressure) but only truly broke out of the drone like mindswhen i was 17. since then its been totall choas in my life all of it stemming from the orginization of course.
my parents are the defenition of brainwashed wittnesses, my father even belives he is anointed.. after i got baptised i suffered from intense deppression and with a little soul searching, after a year i realized that i need some time for my self.
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boyzone
Hi Belly and welcome!
Your story is an all too common one but congratulations on getting out so young and while you still have so many options to choose from.
When my young son left the "truth", I was just like your parents, constantly pressuring to go back, saying his life wouldn't be good without the "truth" blah blah blah...
You know what? He totally proved me wrong. He passed his driving test, got a good job in his field of interest (computer tech) and eventually moved into a place of his own. He got a great circle of friends around him and is a son I'm very proud of.
So if its financially difficult to move out right now, I'd recommend you make progress with your life. Get out there and start making things happen for you in a positive way. Set REAL goals, not theocraptic ones, and let your parents see just how well and happy you are without the "truth". Trust me, this'll speak more volumes to your parents than all the arguments put together.
love BZ
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WT Society Makes JW's Feel Bad about Themselves - No Self Worth
by flipper ini have noticed this a lot in attitudes of witness relatives i've talked with over the last few years , as well as other former witness friends i have talked to.
many witnesses feel bad about themselves due to having it drilled into them that we are all " sinners " who allegedly inherited " sin and imperfection " from adam and eve .
that essentially humans are " born dead " or in a " dying " condition due to alleged " inherited sin " .
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boyzone
Anyone remember the way Ray Franz describes this in ISOCF?
On page 606 he says this;
"It is a sad fact that those most affected by the persistant pressure to do more and more in organizationally directed activities are those persons among Jehovahs Witnesses who are the most sensitive and conscientious. For many of these, the argumentation - that subtly implies guilt if one does not follow the organization's "suggestions" and "recomendations" in striving for "increased service" - creates a constant concern that they are not doing enough, not measuring up."
I firmly believe that chapter describes many of us who ended up on anti-depressants, fat, heavy secret drinkers, or suicidal all because of the terrible low self esteem we had of trying to be good little conscientious witnesses and trying to live with the guilt that we weren't doing enough - me included.
Ray goes on to relate the story of Clarisse Greutmann who, of a sensitive nature, conscientiously pioneered to the point of exhaustion. Encouraged to continue pioneering by a CO, she suffered a breakdown and while severely depressed, jumped from a 4 storey building. She survived but had to lose her lower right leg. Her physical injuries got better but her emotional ones didnt. The book goes on to say;
"She felt she ahd failed as a pioneer and thus had failed God and that her purpose in life was finished. She could not find forgiveness for herself for the things she had done."
Her husband then relates;
"Naturally she later heard that "nobody had forced her to go beyond her capacity in pioneering" Neither the person that made these comments nor Clarisse knew of the power of constantly repeated "recommendations" and "council" in a tiring program. But you know it and God knows it."
The story ends sadly. In October 1975 Clarisse's body was found floating in the waters below the Golden Gate Bridge from where she had jumped. She was 34 years old. The sense of religious failure which led to her depression had never lifted.
Under the then current rules of the Society, she wasn't even permitted a Witness funeral because she was a suicide. 2 years after her death, they changed the rules.
This story helped me alot in understanding why I felt so terribly guilty for failing when my sons left the "truth". This feeling of utter failure is so overwhelming that its hard to put into words. My sense of guilt was so bad that I attempted suicide by swallowing as many paracetamol as I could find. It took an emergency hospital visit and an antedote to stop my kidneys failing.
The elders answer to all this was to pray and keep busy. NOT helpful! The feeling of failure and depression persisted for months and I would often contemplate suicide.
It wasn't until I read that chapter in Ray's book did I realise why I felt that way and where these feelings of guilt were coming from. It was only then could I identify the source of the pressure, and that was the Society. These 9 men have SO much to answer for.