In July of 1969, President Nathan H. Knorr addressed 81,000 Witnesses at
Dodger Field in Los Angeles. "Why are we looking forward to 1975?" he asked.
And then he answered his question by stating, "It is firmly maintained that by
the autumn of the year 1975, the battle of Armageddon will have been fought and
God's new world will have been established" (Los Angeles Herald Examiner, July
21, 1969).
http://www.lamblion.com/articles/doctrinal/Cults/Cults-13.php
glenster
JoinedPosts by glenster
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Interesting old article from Time magazine re:1975
by marmot indon't know if this has ever been discussed on here.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,901074-1,00.html .
july 18, 1969 .
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glenster
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honesty
by darkman indanny haszard is one smart guy...check out the picture from england...jw/un drama.
sodomizing the truth for a library card?...jws taught my daughter to lie and framed me.
...love/norris attorneys of fort worth, tx, usa...and also be sure to watch for barbara .
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glenster
I'm new to the issue, too. Is this it?:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/15/144202/1.ashx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrespasserMy focus would normally be about the leaders being deceptive when trying to
affect exclusiveness, especially if any followers are harmed by relationships
being broken up, let alone hurt or killed in hospitals, Germany, Malawi, etc.Rutherford put the followers into conflicts, and had a hand, which current JWs
leaders ignore, in getting followers thrown into prison camps and killed. Yet
Rutherford's strictly selfish motives in sending orders from his mansion to fol-
lowers to take the risk of spreading his prejudice and damnation around with
loudspeakers led to some general rules about freedom of speech. Followers diso-
beying "no trespassing" signs and being attacked reminds me of that--followers
getting into conflict over support or criticism of the JWs leaders.One point about it I don't know that could make a difference is what the cur-
rent JWs leaders' stance on "no trespassing" signs is--to encourage followers to
respect them or disrespect them and consider any resultant harm to be suffering
for the sake of righteousness? If the latter, which could be dangerous in some
countries, even fatal in Saudi Arabia, this could provoke and already opinion-
ated person to be even more defensive. Was it encouraged by the leaders or done
out of these followers' own initiative?If the trespassers knocked on a "no trespassing" sign, they could be said to
have been warned, even up to mischief to make a confrontation with a controver-
sially critical dweller with strong opinions, which Danny was popularly known to
be. The leaders' tract with kids on the cover and claiming thousands have died
putting God's word first, for example, which I'd call being misleading though
kids have died, can be pretty upsetting and offensive, but I wouldn't recommend
pepper spraying old followers. Even if they could reasonably be suspected as up
to something annoying to provoke conflict, the leaders don't let them run any-
thing. It would be like pepper spraying Popoff's followers. On the followers
side, in this case I think I'd have called or written ahead to make an appoint-
ment....What's the current JWs leaders' stance about how followers should handle "no
trespassing" signs? -
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Freemasonry?
by inkling inok so my cousin (raised as a witness but never took it serious) recently has.
become a freemason.. i have always thought of them as a odd but likable and harmless "club", but.
all this thinking makes me wonder if there is anything dark and sinister my.
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glenster
I have an offhanded undersatanding of Freemasonry. I thought it wad group
that let people of various faiths do community work together. According to
this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonrythat's basically it.
It says Freemasonry requires a member to be a moral person of good character
who wants to help the community. I'll go with the choice that he wasn't a Free-
mason, then.Russell may have had some symbols in common with it and possibly networked
with some for whatever advantage, but I don't think the JWs leaders' originator
of a literal 144,000, resultant propaganda/making the facts fit the theory/slan-
der against most others to make it a phoney elitist literature-selling scam, in-
cluding the beginning of the JWs leaders' harsher shunning ideas in how the
court judged the way Russell cooked up his friends to treat Maria during his
divorce, fits the definition.It seems like he was about as much a Mason as his flavor of Christian, I
should say Russellite, Zionism, complete with specific date-setting predictions
and historicism, made him an orthodox Jewish person. -
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My essay on blood transfusions (Eng 101)
by inkling inthe following is an essay i wrote for my eng 101 class a few years ago.. this is an example of pre-doubt me.. although my theological motivations for writing this piece were clearly.
suspect, i stand by the medical information i found.. (sources) available upon request.. comments and criticism welcome.. .
"bloodshot".
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glenster
There are some good facts there. Then again, in a stacked deck there are some
good cards, too, but I'd ask for a new deck before I played. It reads like the
facts sought after were the ones meant to rationalize the irresponsible prophet
playing of the JWs leaders rules about it (due to the "pre-doubt" outlooks?)."Far too often, rather than being a miraculous cure, blood transfusions con-
tribute to transmission of disease, a weakened immune system, increased recovery
time, as well as enabling and sustaining clumsy and ill-informed medical proto-
col. The true solution lies, not in a safer and more copious blood supply, but
in lessening or eliminating the routine use of blood altogether."There are some good ideas there, but the responsible thing is to give the
risks of blood /blood fractions and alternatives, and use whatever has the least
risk--eliminating blood/blood fractions when the substitutes always carry less
risk, which isn't currently true. The essay doesn't give a balanced presenta-
tion of the odds and risks, and doesn't tell the reader when it's responsible to
use blood/blood fractions or the substitute has less risk. Even when I started
researching it in the late 1980's, hospital representatives told me that most
uses of blood/blood products were found outside the operating room, yet JWs
leaders' literature emphasized, even mischaracterized, surgeries that had been
done without transfusion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodless_surgery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_death
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/thrombocytopenia.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrombotic_thrombocytopenic_purpura
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle_cell_disease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemolytic_disease_of_the_newborn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evans_syndromeThe essay also doesn't convey that when doctors refer to bloodless surgery
they may only be referring to whole blood.Kerry Louderback-Wood provided examples of misrepresentations created by the
JWs leaders' tract "How Can Blood Save Your Life?," 1990, shown at the 2nd entry
for 2006 in my research so far at the next link.
http://gtw6437.tripod.com/id12.htmlA couple of examples:
- it quotes Dr.John S. Spratt as stating "The cancer surgeon may need to be-
come a bloodless surgeon" without explaining that he didn't mean doctors should
follow the JWs leaders' rules about blood but only that doctors may need to rely
more on red cells (banned for medical use by the JWs leaders) than whole blood:
"cancer surgeons should consider administering only packed washed or washed
frozen red cells for urgent correction of blood loss."
http://www.libertadeslaicas.org.mx/paginas/infoEspecial/pdfArticulosLaicidad/100101176.pdfA study of pre-operative Jehovah's Witnesses gave a 1.3 percent mortality rate
for patients with hemoglobin concentrations of 12 g/dL, but a 33 percent rate
for those less than 6 g/dL. Poor cardiovascular health of increased the mortal-
ity rate 4.3-fold, so it would be very unlikely that a patient with a heart
problem and a low hemoglobin count of 6 would have a favorable outcome. Due to
this high risk of organ failure or death, the usual "lowest" acceptable level is
about 7--"red cell transfusion...is almost always needed when the level is less
than 6 g/dl." Doctors would probably use transfusions earlier if they thought
the patient had a poor heart or circulatory system.The essay above says "The most obvious risk involved in taking someone else's
blood into your body is transfer of disease"; "around the globe, unsafe blood
transfusion and injection practices cause some 5 million Hepatitis C virus in-
fections each year."So when the risk of fatality from not using blood is greater than that of
getting hepatitis, the hepatitis concern is outweighed. The article gives no
idea what those circumstances are to base a responsible decision on.Complications and risks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfusion_reactionThere are risks associated with receiving a blood transfusion, and these must
be balanced against the benefit which is expected. The most common adverse
reaction to a blood transfusion is a so-called febrile non-hemolytic transfusion
reaction, which consists of a fever which resolves on its own and causes no
lasting problems or side effects.Hemolytic reactions include chills, headache, backache, dyspnea, cyanosis,
chest pain, tachycardia and hypotension.Blood products can rarely be contaminated with bacteria; the risk of severe
bacterial infection and sepsis is estimated, as of 2002, at about 1 in 50,000
platelet transfusions, and 1 in 500,000 red blood cell transfusions.[10]Transmission of viral infection is a common concern with blood transfusion.
As of 2006, the risk of acquiring hepatitis B via blood transfusion in the Unit-
ed States is about 1 in 250,000 units transfused, and the risk of acquiring HIV
or hepatitis C in the U.S. via a blood transfusion is estimated at 1 per 2 mil-
lion units transfused.The essay says "Hepatitis C has no cure. If you acquire the disease, you will
carry it for years before it slowly begins to kills you" left a few things out
(the odds of getting it are remote, the variety of symptoms, etc. the doctor has
to balance against the issues at hand). An article about it is at the next link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HepatitisTRALI is a bigger concern today than hepatitis.
Transfusion-associated acute lung injury (TRALI) is an increasingly recognized
adverse event associated with blood transfusion. TRALI is a syndrome of acute
respiratory distress, often associated with fever, non-cardiogenic pulmonary
edema, and hypotension, which may occur as often as 1 in 2000 transfusions.
Symptoms can range from mild to life-threatening, but most patients recover ful-
ly within 96 hours, and the mortality rate from this condition is less than 10%.There were 35 deaths due to TRALI in the U.S. in 2006.
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:xGjZ614Ii2wJ:www.unitedbloodservices.org/hospitalnewsletters/2007-06-jun-10.pdf+TRALI+2007&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=usThe AABB response to it, recommending that "blood centers modify the use of
plasma according to the gender of the donor" to help prevent TRALI, is at the
next link.
http://www.smartbrief.com/news/aabb/storyDetails.jsp?issueid=8ED02612-9BBE-427E-95E9-56131199F504©id=81AF79D4-B3CC-47AC-88DC-0AD8E99B28A0&lmcid=Other risks associated with receiving a blood transfusion include volume over-
load, iron overload (with multiple red blood cell transfusions), transfusion-as-
sociated graft-vs.-host disease, anaphylactic reactions (in people with IgA def-
iciency), and acute hemolytic reactions (most commonly due to the administration
of mismatched blood types).Blood transfusion substitutes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_substitutesAs of mid-2006, there are no clinically utilized oxygen-carrying blood substi-
tutes for humans; however, there are widely available non-blood volume expanders
and other blood-saving techniques. These are helping doctors and surgeons avoid
the risks of disease transmission and immune suppression, address the chronic
blood donor shortage, and address the concerns of Jehovah's Witnesses and others
who have religious objections to receiving transfused blood.A number of blood substitutes are currently in the clinical evaluation stage.
Most attempts to find a suitable alternative to blood thus far have concentrated
on cell-free hemoglobin solutions. Blood substitutes could make transfusions
more readily available in emergency medicine and in pre-hospital EMS care. If
successful, such a blood substitute could save many lives, particularly in
trauma where massive blood loss results.From an earlier post by HAL9000 at this forum:
Information on Erythropoiesis Stimulating Agents (ESA) (marketed as Procrit,
Epogen, and Aranesp)
FDA ALERT [11/16/2006, Updated 2/16/2007 and 3/9/2007]: FDA is issuing this
alert to provide new safety information for erythropoiesis-stimulating agents
(ESAs) [Aranesp (darbepoetin alfa), Epogen (epoetin alfa), and Procrit (epoetin
alfa)]. Analyses of four new studies in patients with cancer found a higher
chance of serious and life-threatening side effects and/or death with the use of
ESAs. These research studies were evaluating an unapproved dosing regimen, a
patient population for which ESAs are not approved, or a new unapproved ESA.
In another study, patients scheduled for orthopedic surgery had a higher rate
of deep venous thrombosis when treated with Procrit at the approved dose. This
new information is consistent with risks found in two clinical studies in pa-
tients with chronic renal failure treated with an unapproved regimen of an ESA
that were reported in November 2006 and are summarized in the data section be-
low.
All ESAs have the same mechanism of action. As a result, FDA believes these
new concerns apply to all ESAs and is re-evaluating how to safely use this pro-
duct class. FDA and Amgen, the manufacturer of Aranesp, Epogen and Procrit,
have changed the full prescribing information for these drugs. The new product
labeling includes a new boxed warning, updated warnings, and a change to the
dosage and administration sections for all ESAs. -
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Purple triangle monopoly
by 5go inthis is one i would love to see busted.. jw were not the only ones to get a purple triangle in the nazi camps.
i bet they were not even the majority of the ones to receive them.. .
the purple triangle was a nazi concentration camp badge used by the nazis to identify several un-orthodox religious groups known as "bibelforscher".
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glenster
The various kinds of prejudice deserve disapproval, though not all the examples
given above have as long a history, or have a substantial percent of the U.S.
public still concerned to not encourage it. Just some info on anti-semitism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitic_canardsIt's also contemporary in that some in the U.S. have concerns about the Mid-
East at times, and "Mein Kampf" is popular in some of the Arabic countries in
recent years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf#Current_availabilityThe JWs leaders' anti-semitism wasn't just a pre- and early WWII thing, but
appeared again after WWII:
http://gtw6437.tripod.com/id20.html1946 A year after WW II, the late Rutherford's book "Let God Be True," used
for the next eight years to make converts, blamed the Jews for much of the Jews
own suffering:"Much of their suffering has been brought upon themselves by their com-
mercial, rebellious course of action. They will ever be a target of assault
by Satan and his agents until Armageddon cleanses the earth of all opposers
of Messiah-Christ. Therefore, their only hope is to accept Jehovah's Mes-
siah, Christ Jesus, and come under the protection of his kingdom."
("Let God Be True," J.A. Rutherford, 1946 edition, p.209--omitted in the re-
vised 1952 edition)The JWs leaders may have meant to pander to the bigotted cliche of the greedy
Jwish person in the next example:1956 "The persecutions the Jews suffered bear grim testimony to the accuracy
of the Biblical warning as to what the Jews could expect if they went contrary
to their maker, Jehovah God. (Leviticus 26:14-33) At the same time it should
impress them with the need of putting their trust, not in silver and gold, nor
in men and human agencies, but solely in Jehovah God." ("Awake!" Dec.,22, 1956,
p.20)1963 The persecution of JWs in WWII was "...a horrible Nazi persecution of
'Jehovah’s Witnesses', worse than that of the Jews." ("Babylon the Great Has
Fallen! God’s Kingdom Rules!" 1963, pp.549-550)
http://www.yadleachim.org/Index.asp?CategoryID=131&ArticleID=207It's also contemporary as a concern about the JWs leaders since they've mis-
characterized some of the earlier things in more recent years:1968 "During World War I God's people expected it to lead directly into Arma-
geddon, but Jehovah prevented such a climax at that time. We didn't succumb to
such an expectation during World War II." ("Kingdom Ministry," Jan.,1968, p.5)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWII1975 "The blame for the mass murder of Jews, however, does not rest with
Christianity. It rests with Christendom and her churches. The reason for the
holocaust is plain: Christendom's clergy and their flocks abandoned the teach-
ings of the Bible and of Christ Jesus in favor of supporting the political
state. Centuries of history show that this is by no means the first time they
have done so."By contrast, thousands of European Jews can testify that one religious group
in Germany underwent persecution equal to that heaped upon the Jews: Jehovah's
witnesses. Hundreds of these died in concentration camps. They suffered be-
cause of insisting on holding to and practicing true Christianity rather than
worship of the State." ("The Watchtower," May 15th, 1975, p.294)There's a lot you can correct there, but for the moment I'll leave it at that
proper generalizations refer to what's mostly true, and most Christians fought
against the Nazis and most JWs were in the U.S. and talked any potential con-
vert out of doing it.1989 In a JWs leaders' "Awake!" under the heading "The Holocaust--victims or
martyrs?": "all those who suffered as a result of the Holocaust were victims,
but only a minority were truly martyrs." The Jews, Poles, Russians and Ukrain-
ians were victims, "But the case of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' in Europe was differ-
ent." The tract claims that the JWs were the only true martyrs of the Holo-
caust. ("Awake!" April 8, 1989)
http://www.yadleachim.org/Index.asp?CategoryID=131&ArticleID=207The Jewish people were targeted for genocide for being Jews, whereas Hitler
just wanted the JWs to not spread tracts with bad PR about him around Germany.
The main thing that happened before JWs started appearing in Nazi prison camps
is that Rutherford had letters sent to Hitler that amounted to threatening Hit-
ler that if he didn't stop having the JWs harassed, Rutherford would send un-
armed JWs into the German streets with tracts so critical of Hitler that God
would destroy him soon.1934 On Oct.7, all congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Germany assembled
to hear a letter read that was being sent to the officials of Hitler's govern-
ment. It said: "There is a direct conflict between your law and God's law....
Therefore this is to advise you that at any cost we will obey God's command-
ments, will meet together for the study of His Word, and will worship and serve
Him as He has commanded."On the same day, Jehovah's Witnesses in 49 other countries met in special as-
sembly and sent the following telegram to Hitler: "Your ill-treatment of Jeho-
vah's witnesses shocks all good people of earth and dishonors God's name. Re-
frain from further persecuting Jehovah's witnesses; otherwise God will destroy
you and your national party." ("Awake!" Aug.22, 1995) (Actually, the Allies did
that to the Nazis while Rutherford damned the Allies and other people for not
agreeing with his idea of important things, like what year to put his invisible
Jesus in, from his mansion.)
http://www.docbob.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=261935 On Jan.9, The first documented case of a JW incarcerated in Moringen
concentration camp was Anna Seifert.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moringen
http://www.gedenkstaette-moringen.de/
http://www.edition-temmen.com/timetable/The current JWs leaders don't hold Rutherford tresponsible for getting fol-
lowers killed with his blundering prophet-playing, expanded ideas about worldli-
ness, etc.--they make out that they did something honorable by protecting their
followers from political involvement back then:1996 "In 1929, at a time when laws of various governments were beginning to
forbid things that God commands or demand things that God's laws forbid, it was
felt that the higher powers must be Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. This was the
understanding Jehovah's servants had during the crucial period before and dur-
ing World War II and on into the Cold War, with its balance of terror and its
military preparedness. Looking back, it must be said that this view of things,
exalting as it did the supremacy of Jehovah and his Christ, helped God's people
to maintain an uncompromisingly neutral stand throughout this difficult period."
("The Watchtower," May 1, 1996, p.13-14)1999 "First, Jesus Christ said of his followers: 'They are no part of the
world, just as I am no part of the world.' (John 17:14) Jehovah's Witnesses
take this principle seriously. Being 'no part of the world,' they are neutral
in the political affairs of the world.—John 18:36.I don't think sending a threatening letter to Hitler and courting disaster for
followers is to take no part in the political affairs of the world.2007 (date of authorship?) "Thus, the Witnesses never expressed support for
the Nazi Party. Moreover, in the exercise of religious freedom, they did not
intend to stop their public preaching.—Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20."
http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/1998/7/8/article_01.htmThere are lot of examples to the contrary about JWs leaders' support for the
Nazis and their outlooks, "positive Christianity," etc., on my web page of re-
search about it:
http://gtw6437.tripod.com/id20.html -
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Does anyone have any pictures?
by BEROEAN ini've been searching all over for pictures of governing body members engaged in "unscriptural conduct" and i still haven't found any.
i thought that in this day and age with cell phone cameras and spy equipment, at least one person would have something grimey.
i want to see what really goes on after hours in the borg.
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glenster
Unscriptural behavor? I don't have any pictures of them writing their "we're
the only ones of the literal 144,000 to say this but you have to agree for sal-
vation" things. Before you see what I found, though, I want to say I'm deeply
ashamed of myself. I'll just give the link, not post the picture.
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1154/2049312c2qn1.jpgSorry you had to see that. Sorry.
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Dinosaurs and the Bible
by zennin inif you were a jw (!!
), how would you explain dinosaurs and the bible?
?
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glenster
I hope this isn't too off topic, but the JWs leaders remind me of something I
saw on You Tube yesterday:"2001: A Space Odyssey (Short Version)" by jacksfilms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR5pX_d1J6Q -
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Jan 27, 1937 Golden Age PDF: "That Delusion Called 'Love'"
by cabasilas inwhat were jehovah's witnesses distributing door to door 70 years ago?
here's a pdf of the january 27, 1937 golden age magazine (the forerunner of awake!
).this one is real interesting.
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glenster
Good research. I think the idea we're supposed to get from it is the JWs
leaders want to discourage something which could detract from collecting money
for them.1937 "That Delusion Called Love": "God's consecrated people do well to re-
frain from marriage unless they find themselves continually tormented with de-
sire for sexual intercourse, in which case they should marry." "For those of
the younger or older who have need to marry on this score, let them dispose of
the matter in candor and honesty." It encouraged followers that the recommended
course is "shunning the blight, the delusions and illusions of 'love' so called
and courtship, which bring reproach on the holy name of Jehovah." ("The Golden
Age," Jan.27, 1937)
http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/wrong.htm1938 "...mark the words of Jesus, which definitely seem to discourage the
bearing of children immediately before or during Armageddon.... It would
therefore appear that there is no reasonable or scriptural injunction to bring
children into the world immediately before Armageddon, where we now are." ("The
Watchtower," Nov.1, 1938, p.324)Judge Rutherford, two bodyguards, and their melee weapons in the Saturday
Evening Post, Sept.14, 1940.
http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/SAT_EVE_POST_JUDGE_KNORR_P19.jpgA: Maybe if I talk to one of his bodyguards, I could get backstage to get to
meet the Judge in private--see what he wants me to do with that stick.B: You really don't get out much, do you?
2000 "Although Noah's three sons were all married, none fathered children un-
til after the Deluge." "While this does not imply that it is wrong to have
children today, many Christian couples decline to have children so as to become
more fully involved in the urgent work that Jehovah has given his people to do.
Some couples have waited for a time before having children; others have decided
to remain childless and consider the possibility of bearing children in Jeho-
vah's righteous new world." ("Watchtower," Aug.1, 2000, p.21)
http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/wrong.htm -
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This is MY atheism.
by nicolaou ini try to share my love with everyone who will respond to it, even my dog deserves my affection!
i also love those who cannot respond, the starving and unfortunate and my love moves me to offer some small assistance.
this is the love that moves me to try and improve life now instead of waiting for another life to come.. i have become aware that truly knowing myself and understanding my fellowman is a journey i may never complete but that is the way i will find peace and happiness.
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glenster
Not to take the atheist stance, let alone one that calls the one with a hope
commitment for God "ignorant," one of the things I like about James Randi, an
atheist, and Martin Gardner, a deist, is that they've been good buddies of long
standing. People can be centric and put up walls of alienation over just about
anything, but I like it when they know better. Jimmy Stewart, a conservative,
and Henry Fonda, a liberal, having been best friends is like that. I like that.
I didn't have a long post in mind, I just wanted to add that. -
4
EPO and Bloodless Surgery
by HAL9000 incurrently a family member is about to undergo serious surgery.
the surgeon indicated that he would like a unit of pre-operative autologous blood to be donated in case of any unforeseen problems.
the (obvious) response was no: the surgery will proceed however.. .
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glenster
Good research. Can you give the misleading quote from the Watchtower literature? I vaguely remember reading about it in the late '80's or early '90's but I don't have any of that literature around anymore.
