I enjoy trinity debates in the same way I enjoy debates over who the more powerful wizard was: Gandalf or Dumbledore.
neverendingjourney
JoinedPosts by neverendingjourney
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Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time
by AllTimeJeff inthis isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.
because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.
awesome!
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What is the ULTIMATE goal of the Watchtower Society?
by MrDarkKnight inin a number of different threads comments have been made about the motives of the gb and the wtbts.
it made me think, what is their ultimate goal?
what is their end game?.
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neverendingjourney
The "ultimate goal" has become that of any other large bureaucracy: self-preservation.
More to the point, it's about the preservation of an idea: that they possess religious truth and that its members have not spent their lives sacrificing for ordinary, run-of-the-mill religious beliefs indistinguishable from any others.
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The 'Last days' of the Watchtower Society - any truth in this?
by callitquits76 ini have heard this said a lot lately.
is it wishful thinking?
6 screens of the wt has this as their website banner but that website is like a tabloid newspaper..
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neverendingjourney
If you think of it in terms of MONEY or MEMBERS, STOP.
Ray Franz said in COC that the there were 2 primary motivating forces behind the GB's actions:
1. Numbers (i.e., membership increases) and
2. The need to uphold traditional policies.
I would give the numbers-game a little more credit than you do.
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Revelation Prophecy Fulfillments According to WTS.......How Long Has it Been?
by drewcoul ini recently listened to an old fred franz talk that i found online that i remember attending when i was 11 in 1983 in indianapolis.
since i remembered that i didn't follow what he was saying back then, i wanted to listen to it and see if i could understand it now.
(the only difference is he still doesn't make much sense, but now i know it wasn't just because i was too young to understand at the time.).
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neverendingjourney
Good point.
But you can take this logic and go back in farther. Does the Watchtower really believe that Jehovah had Russell and his followers preaching to a bunch of people in the 1880s who would ALL die before Armageddon?
What about 1919? Does the Watchtower really believe that Jesus selected Rutherford and the Bible Students as the "faithful and discreet slave" in 1919 even though 99.99% of the people alive back then (who would be able to discern their message) are now dead?
Their eschatology may have been internally consistent ("made sense") back in Russell's day, but every time the Watchtower has had to make an adjustment due prophetic failure, it's become less and less so. They are working off of a prophetic outline established 80-100 years ago, an outline that contemplated the coming of Armageddon many decades ago. They would be better of scrapping the whole damn thing and starting all over. It seems they've decided against that and have been slowly making minor changes hoping that their followers won't notice. It's working!
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God and the Meaning of Life: Where I Now Stand
by neverendingjourney infifteen years ago, jehovah god was as real as the ground below me.
as it turns out, my belief was founded on lies, half-truths, and a burning desire on my part to possess a theory of everything, something that tied up all the loose ends and make sense of the world.. i stopped going to meetings nearly six years ago, and ive mostly given up the search for the ever-elusive theory of everything.
im not really a science guy, but ive read a few books on atheism and biology in the past few years.
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neverendingjourney
So maybe we do not understand everything that's happening around us, but what our senses register stays the seem.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I don't think it's quite as clear-cut as you describe. There has been a considerable amount of material written on this point. See, for instance, works on the philosophy of space and time as well as the theory of biocentrism. By no means am I an expert in any of this stuff. Most of this is new to me. I'm just trying to make sense of it.
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God and the Meaning of Life: Where I Now Stand
by neverendingjourney infifteen years ago, jehovah god was as real as the ground below me.
as it turns out, my belief was founded on lies, half-truths, and a burning desire on my part to possess a theory of everything, something that tied up all the loose ends and make sense of the world.. i stopped going to meetings nearly six years ago, and ive mostly given up the search for the ever-elusive theory of everything.
im not really a science guy, but ive read a few books on atheism and biology in the past few years.
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neverendingjourney
Fifteen years ago, Jehovah God was as real as the ground below me. As it turns out, my belief was founded on lies, half-truths, and a burning desire on my part to possess a theory of everything, something that tied up all the loose ends and make sense of the world.
I stopped going to meetings nearly six years ago, and I’ve mostly given up the search for the ever-elusive theory of everything. I’m not really a “science guy,” but I’ve read a few books on atheism and biology in the past few years. Based on that reading and general musings of mine, a thought structure has begun to take shape for me.
The basics of that structure is that different life forms interpret “reality” according to their brain development. For instance, unicellular organisms possess no brain. Therefore, they are for all intents and purposes unaware of their surroundings. They instinctually go about the processes of replication and survival, sort of along the lines of a brain-dead human being. Organisms of a higher order, such as rodents, for instance, have small brains that allow them to feel cold, heat, pain, etc. But they do not understand math or science beyond their instinctual impulses. As you get up the chain of development, life forms may possess a greater understanding of the world around them, but none possess the ability to contemplate their own deaths or wonder about their place in the universe to the extent that humans do. In that respect, humans are the pinnacle of brain development on this planet. We possess an unrivaled degree of “consciousness.” Our pet dog might know when it’s happy or sad, but it does not wonder what happens to it after it dies. The reality of the permanency of death is lost on it.
What you begin to understand is that our brains serve as a filter with which we interpret impulses from the physical universe. Organisms of a higher order are able to interpret “realities” that lower life forms cannot even begin to fathom. We would never put together a team of the most intelligent dogs on the planet and expect them to build a spaceship. The reality of higher math and science is not something their brains are capable of understanding. The arrogance of man, however, has led us to assume that what we perceive as reality is all there is. It has blinded us to the thought that our perception of the physical universe may be limited by our development. If we could somehow travel several million years into the future, perhaps we will have developed into a life form that would view today’s humans as nothing more than the dogs or cats of the 21 st century. Perhaps at that point, the life form that we have evolved into would have more highly-developed brains capable of perceiving realities that our current minds cannot even begin grasp, realities that would help us make better sense of our place in the universe and bring us closer to that ever-elusive theory of everything.
This is where religion comes in. Human beings tend to assume that we are special among all species. We have reached a level of consciousness to where we understand that death is permanent but we don’t understand how our deaths fit into the greater picture. We desperately yearn for a theory of everything to put our minds at peace. Religion fills that vacuum. Religion tells us that death is not permanent. It explains our creation and gives us a meaning to our life. It fills in gaps and provides us answers to realities that our brain is unable to perceive. A more developed life form would laugh at our feeble attempts to come up with answers to realties we are unable to contemplate.
Of course, the problem with this explanation is that if we are unable to perceive other realities that would help make sense of the universe, then we are left with no answers. That’s not ideal, but that’s just the way it is. It’s better to make peace with it, then to go chasing after made up explanations such as those that may be found in religion.
As to what the “truth” ultimately is, your guess is as good as mine. It may eventually lead to gods and goddess or higher life forms of some type. It may take the form of some reality our brains are currently incapable of understanding. Scientists and philosophers have suggested that space and time are simply constructs of our human minds, “realities” our brains create to make sense of the stimuli we receive from the physical universe. Perhaps there are other information systems out there that correspond to realities based on logic completely different from our own. The greater point is that at this point in my life I do not believe we are developed to the point of being fully capable of understanding our place in the universe. A search for a theory of everything will eventually lead us nowhere, or worse, to made up explanations such as those provided by religion.
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Some observations from the KM Elder School I wanted to share with you.
by miseryloveselders inmy school was a couple weeks back, and it was interesting to a degree.
to be honest with you, it reminded me of a police crime scene investigation with yellow tape.
what i mean is, in one respect it was business as usual.
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neverendingjourney
Apparently, any worldly media reports, including anything on the internet, is out there obscuring the real facts, which only the GB as God's chosen group are privy to.
My cousin and his wife joined a cult a few years ago that is aligned with the sacred name movement. They shun christmas and most other holidays, just like JWs. His wife is particularly indoctrinated into the movement.
It is impossible to have a normal conversation with her. She constantly brings up debunked conspiracy theories as fact and goes on about how the real truth isn't getting out to the masses. She has access to this knowledge because her church leaders are in "the know." It's mostly apocalyptical stuff...crap that's supposed to prove the imminence of Armageddon.
The funny part is that your typical JW would easily be able to spot this wackiness, but they are incapable of seeing how they, themselves, are in the same boat.
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It Is WRONG To Make Threads About What The Watchtower Is Doing If You Do Not Have Facts To Back It Up!!!
by minimus ini think we should not make statements about what the watchtower society is secretly doing if we can not substantiate the statements.. we do not know if a "bethelite" is doing whatever he claims to be doing clandestinely.
when we make threads or statements about things we have absolutely no proof of, we are making ourselves look bad.. when impressionable people read these things, it sets our efforts back immensely.. please think about what you're doing.
it's counter-productive!.
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neverendingjourney
Here's a link to one of the end-of-CO threads that were going around at that time:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/158643/1/The-End-of-Circuit-Overseers
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It Is WRONG To Make Threads About What The Watchtower Is Doing If You Do Not Have Facts To Back It Up!!!
by minimus ini think we should not make statements about what the watchtower society is secretly doing if we can not substantiate the statements.. we do not know if a "bethelite" is doing whatever he claims to be doing clandestinely.
when we make threads or statements about things we have absolutely no proof of, we are making ourselves look bad.. when impressionable people read these things, it sets our efforts back immensely.. please think about what you're doing.
it's counter-productive!.
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neverendingjourney
I don't recall many (any, actually) topics started here that made outright claims that were later proven to be untrue.
Oh, boy! Do you really want to open that can of worms?
Do you remember when the pioneer-hours reduction was being taken at face value on this forum? Or what about the end-of-circuit-overseer rumor?
Both were taken at face value by many and came from a supposedly reliable source.
There are many more examples, but these two immediately come to mind.
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911 AND MY BROTHER AT BETHEL RINGS ME TO SAY TAKE COVER
by Hairyhegoat inmy younger brother was at bethel in london when the 911 took place in america.
he said this is it and the great tribulation had started!!
i was at work in liverpool in the uk on that day and i was shitin it when he rang my mobile.. i then had a call from other my brother who was df 3 years before but some how he was shitin his pants also.
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neverendingjourney
I was publicly reproved at the time, so 9/11 scared me quite a bit. For a few hours I thought it could be the beginning of the great tribulation, but as events unfolded, it became clear that what occurred didn't square up with the scenario the Watchtower had painted.
9/11 did lay bare how many "ex-JWs" still linger under JW mind control. I left the WT 5 years ago, but I have one good friend who still is "in". He rarely goes to meetings, but he still can't get over the mind control. Unless something changes, he will be one of the ones running back to the Kingdom Hall after the next 9/11 event. It's sad because he carries around JW guilt in the meantime.