hello, i am certainly new to all of this.
i have recently been studying the prophecy's, and i was wondering if they are of any importance at all?
Viviane,
Well, another issue, is that skeptics will always attempt to date the writing of a book *after* the prophecy is fulfilled.
That's why the "Two Isaiahs" and "Three Isaiah" and "Four Isaiahs" theories exist.
Heck, I've even seen a "seven Isaiahs" theory trying to avoid the idea it was written by the prophet Isaiah.
hello, i am certainly new to all of this.
i have recently been studying the prophecy's, and i was wondering if they are of any importance at all?
Cofty,
I respectfully disagree. There is one in particular that even the most skeptical scholars on earth admit was written at least 160 years before Jesus' birth:
Daniel 9:24-26.
Even Jewish, non-Christian scholars have said that the 69 "sevens" means 69 multiplied by 7 years.
That takes us directly to the year 33 A.D. when Jesus died as Messiah.
i realize many people on here are very angry at the watchtower society and/or governing body for various reasons, many of which are likely justified, at least to some extent.
i also can totally understand the cynicism and pessimism i see from certain ones regarding the leaders of the society.. i think one thing that's often forgotten or overlooked, however, is the fact that members of the governing body who've been "in the truth" for 30, 40, 50, 60 years, probably truly believe in this organization.
in my opinion, it's more likely that they believe what they teach instead of being liars who are intentionally deceiving everyone.
The Governing Body really doesn't need the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" parable or a literal 144,000. I foresee them clarifying/discarding both of these soon.
Instead of using the Faithful Slave parable, they'll simply use the First-Century Jerusalem "Governing Body" of Peter, James, Apostles, and Elders as their example, justifying their authority.
After all, all other churches have authority structures without needing special parables justifying their existence.
I can see them shifting and saying the 144,000 may be literal or may be symbolic-- just follow your spirit/heart on whether to partake.
This would explain and justify why there are so many younger Anointed or a younger Governing Body.
It also might draw a larger number of people to have Bible Studies if they bring back the Heavenly Hope to a large number of new believers.
the governing body has recently placed a large priority on simplicity and clarity in their teachings and publications.
the watchtower study edition, march 15, 2015, pages 8-10:.
in recent years, the spiritual instruction provided by jehovahs organization has reflected an increased emphasis on simplicity and clarity.
The Governing Body has recently placed a large priority on simplicity and clarity in their teachings and publications. For example:
The Watchtower Study Edition, March 15, 2015, Pages 8-10:
In recent years, the spiritual instruction provided by Jehovah’s organization has reflected an increased emphasis on simplicity and clarity. Consider three examples. First, there is the simplified edition of The Watchtower.* This edition has proved to be, in effect, a loving gift to those who struggle with language or find reading a challenge.
As we might expect, over the years Jehovah has helped “the faithful and discreet slave” to become steadily more discreet. Discretion has led to greater caution when it comes to calling a Bible account a prophetic drama unless there is a clear Scriptural basis for doing so. Additionally, it has been found that some of the older explanations about types and antitypes are unduly difficult for many to grasp. The details of such teachings—who pictures whom and why—can be hard to keep straight, to remember, and to apply. Of even greater concern, though, is that the moral and practical lessons of the Bible accounts under examination may be obscured or lost in all the scrutiny of possible antitypical fulfillments. Thus, we find that our literature today focuses more on the simple, practical lessons about faith, endurance, godly devotion, and other vital qualities that we learn about from Bible accounts.
So that's why I am starting a new series of posts on this website entitled "Simplified Suggestions." I'll be giving suggestions to the Governing Body for much simpler, accurate, interpretations based on the context. Now, for this first post in this series, it will be all about...
Jesus' Prophecy of the End (Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13) -- Simplified Suggestion
First off, let's look and see that the 2015 Insight Book definitely acknowledges that the primary or main fulfillment of Jesus' words here applied to 70 C.E. when the Romans destroyed the Jewish Temple:
Insight Book (2015), Volume 1, Page 918:
Jesus Christ, when denouncing the Jewish religious leaders, concluded by saying: “Truly I say to you, All these things will come upon this generation.” History recounts that about 37 years later (in 70 C.E.) that contemporary generation personally experienced the destruction of Jerusalem, as foretold.—Mt 23:36. Later that same day, Jesus again used practically the same words, saying: “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Mt 24:34) In this instance, Jesus was answering a question regarding the desolation of Jerusalem and its temple as well as regarding the sign of his presence and of the conclusion of the system of things. So his comment about “this generation” logically had an application down to 70 C.E.
Insight Book (2015), Volume 2, Page 1127:
When answering the question of his disciples concerning the sign of his presence and the conclusion of the system of things, Jesus mentioned a “great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” (Mt 24:3, 21) As a comparison of Matthew 24:15-22 with Luke 21:20-24 reveals, this had initial reference to a tribulation to come upon Jerusalem. The fulfillment came in 70 C.E., when the city was besieged by the Roman armies under General Titus.
My Simplified Suggestion for this topic is to just take it one logical step further, in harmony with the Governing Body's new stance on clarity and elimination of unnecessary doctrinal details and confusing double-fulfillments, is to say that Christ's words only applied to 70 C.E. and do not have an antitypical second fulfillment today.
This would be in perfect agreement with Luke 21:5-7 (Revised New World Translation), which reads:
Later, when some were speaking about the temple, how it was adorned with fine stones and dedicated things, he said: “As for these things that you now see, the days will come when not a stone will be left upon a stone and not be thrown down.” Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are to occur?”
This context clearly shows that Luke 21 (the parallel account of Matthew 24 and Mark 13) is Jesus and the disciples focusing only on the destruction of the Jewish Temple which they were looking at, not an antitypical future second fulfillment 2,000 years later.
Continue down and look at Luke 21:20-28, Jesus explicitly says that these things will occur when the armies surround the city of Jerusalem, which the Society admits was fulfilled in 66-70 C.E., concluding when General Titus destroyed the Temple.
Luke 21:20 (Revised NWT): "However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then you know that the desolating of her has drawn near."
Earlier Christ had prophesied this same judgment and condemnation as a punishment on the Jews in Jerusalem for rejecting the Messiah during the time of the inspection/visitation.
This is found in Luke 19:41-44 (Revised NWT):
And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, saying: “If you, even you, had discerned on this day the things having to do with peace—but now they have been hidden from your eyes. Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification of pointed stakes and will encircle you and besiege you from every side. They will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.”
Jesus continued to warn about this same event, the destruction of the Jewish Temple, in Luke 23:27-31. Jesus once again warned Jerusalem about its destruction. All of this has nothing to do with some secondary antitypical fulfillment 2,000 years later.
Jesus just used hyperbole and symbolism to describe this event of the Romans destroying the Temple in 70 C.E., by saying they would see Jesus in the clouds and at the right hand of God. This symbolizes Christ's power and authority as King.
Matthew 26:64 (Revised NWT): Jesus said to him: “You yourself said it. But I say to you: From now on you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
quote from the watchtower, march 15, 2015, page 23:.
in the illustration of the faithful and discreet slave, jesus spoke of an evil slave who beat his fellow slaves.
jesus was not there foretelling that an evil slave class would arise.
It would appear they are also setting the stage for major changes to their Faithful and Discreet Slave Parable interpretation in the future.
By including the Faithful & Discreet Slave and calling it "an illustration" in the very same Watchtower where they say they are doing away with interpreting illustrations as types and antitypes, the Society is preparing in case they need to update this teaching in a major way.
Also, the Society now claims they will no longer interpret Parables as applying to certain classes. They already started this with removing the Evil Slave Class.
But, if the Evil Slave is absolutely not a composite class, then why would the Good Slave be a composite class?
Looks to me like they are getting ready to declare that the Faithful Slave was just a parable "warning his spiritual brothers about what
would happen if they lost their sense of vigilance and did not prove to
be prepared," which is what that quote above explains.
quote from the watchtower, march 15, 2015, page 23:.
in the illustration of the faithful and discreet slave, jesus spoke of an evil slave who beat his fellow slaves.
jesus was not there foretelling that an evil slave class would arise.
Quote from The Watchtower, March 15, 2015, Page 23:
In the illustration of the faithful and discreet slave, Jesus spoke of an evil slave who beat his fellow slaves. Jesus was not there foretelling that an evil slave class would arise. Rather, he was warning the faithful slave not to display the traits of an evil slave. Similarly, in the illustration of the ten virgins, Jesus was not indicating that half of his anointed followers would be like the five foolish virgins. Instead, he was warning his spiritual brothers about what would happen if they lost their sense of vigilance and did not prove to be prepared.
the july 15, 2015 study watchtower article entitled "your deliverance is getting near", along with the jw broadcasting video entitled "gerrit losch: fortified by "the prophetic word," and chapter 21 of the god's kingdom rules!
book presented a large amount of new light or clarified understanding of the events of the great tribulation.. here i am presenting it in chronological order -- this is the governing body's updated chronological order of events for the time right before the great tribulation through armageddon:.
the final sealing of the anointed occurs just prior to the outbreak of the tribulation.
Here are the relevant Watchtower quotes showing their New Light on the possibility of people repenting and supporting the Anointed during the Great Tribulation:
Watchtower, March 15, 2015, Page 27:
This judgment will occur toward the end of the great tribulation just ahead. And what of the reason why people will be judged as either sheep or goats? The outcome hinges on how they have treated the remaining ones of Christ’s spirit-anointed brothers on earth.
Watchtower, July 15, 2015 Simplified Study Edition:
In a similar way in the future, when the attack against Babylon the Great is “cut short,” we cannot expect that many people will suddenly convert to true Christianity.
Watchtower, July 15, 2015 Regular Study Edition:
Should we conclude, though, that the destruction of the religions of Babylon the Great results in the death of all the former members of those religions? Apparently not. The prophet Zechariah was inspired to write about that time. Speaking of someone who was previously part of false religion, the account states: “He will say, ‘I am no prophet. I am a man cultivating the soil, because a man bought me when I was young.’ And if someone asks him, ‘What are these wounds between your shoulders?’ he will answer, ‘Wounds I received in the house of my friends.’” (Zech. 13:4-6) So, apparently, even some of the clergy will abandon their religious course and deny that they were ever part of those false religions.
[...] What will happen after the destruction of false religious organizations? It will be a time to reveal what is really in our heart. The majority of mankind will seek refuge in human organizations that are likened to “the rocks of the mountains.” (Rev. 6:15-17) Figuratively speaking, however, God’s people will flee to the refuge that Jehovah provides. In the first century, the interval was not a time for a mass conversion of Jews to Christianity. It was a time for action and obedience on the part of those who were already Christians. Similarly, we cannot expect that the future interruption in the great tribulation will result in an influx of new believers. Rather, it will be an opportunity for all true believers to prove their love for Jehovah and give their support to Christ’s brothers.
[...] Although we do not fully understand all that will happen during that time of test, we can expect that it will involve some measure of sacrifice.
i am not a regular visitor to this site, every now and then then i get twisted up about something i come back lol.
i am sure this has been discussed many times so a link to another thread would be great or if someone has the patience to explain again please?
i have read the july 15 2013 wt many times but i simply don't understand the significance of 1919 from the bible.
But now, you can see the Society is changing the language and the way they speak about 1914 and 1919. Now they are using the phrase "history shows that..." instead of trying to use the Bible to prove those dates.
Quote from Watchtower, January 15, 2014, Page 13:
After the enthroned King purged the heavens of the corrupting influence of Satan and his demons, Jehovah directed Jesus to inspect and refine the spiritual condition of his followers on earth. The prophet Malachi described this as a spiritual cleansing. (Mal. 3:1-3) History shows that this took place between 1914 and the early part of 1919.* To be part of Jehovah’s universal family, we must be clean, or holy. (1 Pet. 1:15, 16) We must keep free from any contamination by false religion or the politics of this world.
Jesus then used his kingly authority to appoint a “faithful and discreet slave.” This slave would provide a regular supply of wholesome spiritual food to all who make up the “one flock” under Jesus’ care. (Matt. 24:45-47; John 10:16) Since 1919, a small group of anointed brothers have loyally carried out the weighty responsibility to feed the “domestics.”
And now they are saying the Faithful and Discreet Slave has its authority because they took the lead!
Watchtower, November 15, 2014, Page 30:
What is the common denominator that links these references? In each case, the account refers to God’s anointed ones who took the lead during a difficult time of testing. So in the fulfillment of Revelation chapter 11, the anointed brothers who took the lead at the time of the establishment of God’s Kingdom in heaven in 1914 preached “in sackcloth” for three and a half years.
jesus was a jew who apparently thought he was the messiah, however, after dying, his disciples began to propagate the lie that he would return from heaven during his generation.
but, his generation passed away, and it was clear that it was a false prophecy, then a dishonest christian wrote the second letter of peter so as to condemn those who realised that the prophecy was a fiasco.
interestingly, and sadly, this religion survived,....why????
If you look at Luke chapter 21, and Matthew 24, you'll see that Jesus was simply predicting the Roman armies coming to destroy the Jewish Temple, and that this was His "parasouia" (presence), coming in judgment against the Jews who rejected Him as Messiah.
This actually was fulfilled within a generation, 37 years later.
i am not a regular visitor to this site, every now and then then i get twisted up about something i come back lol.
i am sure this has been discussed many times so a link to another thread would be great or if someone has the patience to explain again please?
i have read the july 15 2013 wt many times but i simply don't understand the significance of 1919 from the bible.
Here's a newer 2014 Question From Readers where they clarify their "New Light" on 1919 (scroll down under the part about the Elders): http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2014847?q=1919&p=par
Here is a 2004 Watchtower all about 1919 (may be Old Light by now): http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2004168?q=1919&p=par
And in this "Highlights of Revelation" Watchtower article they claim Jesus gave the "Key of David" to the Faithful Slave in 1919: http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2009046?q=1919&p=par
