OK SusanHere
David Whitmar was one of Joseph's scribes, you can verify that yourself. Remember that you trust his testimony as a witness to the gold plates. Even if you want to state that he had his own agenda at the time he wrote this, why would his wife lie about it? She while disowning the church after his death (over polygamy) never diened the Book of Mormon. She was also for a short time Joseph's scribe also. During the part when he wrote the first 116 pages.
ExmormonRobertson
JoinedPosts by ExmormonRobertson
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57
Mormons phoned for the last time - I hope
by philo ini had a follow up phone call from the mormons today wanting to arrange for house visit no.
2. the first visit had been a game where i asked questions and they wriggled about a bit so as not to address them -- it brought back dub memories, i'm telling you.. it went like this.... who will survive the world's judgement day?
only mormons and exceptional individuals.. how about me?
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ExmormonRobertson
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6
Copright question about the Society
by ExmormonRobertson ini just recieved the watchtower cd rom today and did a search on mormons.
i found some very funny stuff i would like to reprint on my web site.
does the watchtower society come after people hard when someone reprints their articles?
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ExmormonRobertson
I just recieved the Watchtower CD ROM today and did a search on Mormons. I found some very funny stuff I would like to reprint on my web site. Does the Watchtower Society come after people hard when someone reprints their articles?
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Good Things You Won't Read in the Awake!
by metatron incdc reports "dramatic drop" in u.s. teen birth rates.. - a dramatic 22% decrease in comparison to 1991.. "the continued decline in the teen birth rate is very.
encouraging news" secretary of health and human services.
tommy thompson said in a statement.
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ExmormonRobertson
hippikon wrote:
"Bugger – God is going to kill us all Just when things are starting to look good. Ain’t that just typical."I understand that you're being tonuge in cheek here, but remember there was a lot of posperity just before WWI. Man always manages to screw things up. I'm not being a prophet of doom here, just remembering history, hoping it doesn't repeat itself.
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This is a MUST read folks!
by GlassEye inlast night while my wife and i were reading the newspaper she said "john, you won't believe this, read dear abby".
apparently, dear abby is syndicated in newspapers throughout the u.s. i have received permission from uexpress and uclick to link this article.
it is titled church's scare tactics cause family to flee from the fold.
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ExmormonRobertson
This is funny, over at the ExMo BB we think they're Mormons
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57
Mormons phoned for the last time - I hope
by philo ini had a follow up phone call from the mormons today wanting to arrange for house visit no.
2. the first visit had been a game where i asked questions and they wriggled about a bit so as not to address them -- it brought back dub memories, i'm telling you.. it went like this.... who will survive the world's judgement day?
only mormons and exceptional individuals.. how about me?
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ExmormonRobertson
SusanHere,
Here's part of an article talking about Joseph Smith using a stone in the hat to translate the BOM (This is also for Alex):
How were the Plates Translated?Most Mormons believe that Joseph Smith translated the gold plates with what was known as the Urim and Thummim. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote: "From time to time, as his purposes require, the Lord personally, or through the ministry of appointed angels, delivers to chosen prophets a Urim and Thummim to be used in receiving revelations and in translating ancient records from unknown tongues. With the approval of the Lord these prophets are permitted to pass these instruments on to their mortal successors… Because of the sacred nature of these holy instruments, they have not been viewed by most men, and even the times and circumstances under which they have been held by mortals are not clearly set forth… Joseph Smith received the same Urim and Thummim had by the Brother of Jared for it was the one expressly provided for the translation of the Jaredite and Nephite records." (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, by Bruce R. McConkie, p. 818)
Joseph Smith’s mother wrote the following concerning the Urim and Thummim:
That of which I spoke, which Joseph termed a key, was indeed, nothing more nor less than the Urim and Thummim, and it was by this that the angel showed him many things which he saw in vision; by which he could ascertain, at any time, the approach of danger, either to himself or the Record, and on account of which he always kept the Urim and Thummim about his person. (Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet and his Progenitors for Many Generations, page 106; also reproduced in Early Mormon Documents, Vol. 1)
On page 101 of the same book, Lucy Smith claimed that Joseph actually allowed her to examine the Urim and Thummim:
I knew not what he meant, but took the article of which he spoke into my hands, and, upon examination, found that it consisted of two smooth three-cornered diamonds set in glass, and the glasses were set in silver bows, which were connected with each other in much the same way as old fashioned spectacles. He took them again and left me, but said nothing respecting the Record. (Biographical Sketches, page 101)
Although Joseph Smith was supposed to have the Urim and Thummim, the evidence shows that he preferred to use the seer stone found in a well to translate the Book of Mormon. The Mormon historian B. H. Roberts acknowledged the use of one of Joseph Smith’s seer stones. He made the following statement in the Comprehensive History of the Church, Vol. 1, page 129:
The Seer Stone referred to here was a chocolate-colored, somewhat egg-shaped stone which the Prophet found while digging a well in the company of his brother Hyrum, for a Mr. Clark Chase, near Palmyra, N.Y. It possessed the qualities of Urim and Thummim, since by means of it — as described above — as well as by means of the Interpreters found with the Nephite record, Joseph was able to translate the characters engraven on the plates.
Joseph Smith’s father-in-law, Isaac Hale, noticed a definite relationship between the method Joseph Smith used to translate the Book of Mormon and the way he searched for buried treasures. In an affidavit that Isaac Hale provided we find some very interesting information:
I first became acquainted with Joseph Smith, Jr. in November, 1825. He was at that time in the employ of a set of men who were called "money-diggers;" and his occupation was that of seeing, or pretending to see by means of a stone placed in his hat, and his hat closed over his face. In this way he pretended to discover minerals and hidden treasure… Smith, and his father with several other "money-diggers" boarded at my house while they were employed in digging for a mine that they supposed had been opened and worked by the Spaniards, many years since. Young Smith gave the "money-diggers" great encouragement, at first, but when they had arrived in digging, to near the place where he had stated an immense treasure would be found — he said the enchantment was so powerful that he could not see…
After these occurrences, young Smith made several visits at my house, and at length asked my consent to his marrying my daughter Emma. This I refused, and gave him my reasons for so doing; some of which were, that he was a stranger, and followed a business that I could not approve: he then left the place. Not long after this, he returned, and while I was absent from home, carried off my daughter, into the state of New York, where they were married without my approbation or consent… In a short time they returned…
Smith stated to me, that he had given up what he called "glass-looking," and that he expected to work hard for a living, and was willing to do so… Soon after this, I was informed they had brought a wonderful book of Plates down with them… The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods! (The Susquehanna Register, May 1, 1834)
David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon, described how Joseph Smith placed the "seer stone" into a hat to translate the Book of Mormon:
I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. (An Address to All Believers in Christ, by David Whitmer, 1887, p.12)
In a letter written March 27, 1876, Emma Smith acknowledged that the entire Book of Mormon, that we have today, was translated by the use of the seer stone. James E. Lancaster wrote:
How can the testimonies of Emma Smith and David Whitmer, describing the translation of the Book of Mormon with a seer stone, be reconciled with the traditional account of the church that the Book of Mormon was translated by the "interpreters" found in the stone box with the plates? It is the extreme good fortune of the church that we have testimony by Sister Emma Smith Bidamon on this important issue… a woman… wrote to Emma Bidamon, requesting information as to the translation of the Book of Mormon. Emma Bidamon replied… March 27, 1876. Sister Bidamon’s letter states in part:
"Now the first that my husband translated, was translated by the use of the Urim and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color…"
Sister Bidamon’s letter indicated that at first the Book of Mormon was translated by the Urim and Thummim. She refers to the instrument found with the plates. However, this first method was used only for the portion written on the 116 pages of foolscap, which Martin Harris later lost. After that time the translation was done with the seer stone. (Saints’ Herald, November 15, 1962, page 15; Emma’s letter is also reproduced in Early Mormon Documents, Vol. 1, p.532)
David Whitmer frankly admitted that he never did see Joseph Smith use what was later known as the Urim and Thummim (the two stones set in silver bows). This information is found in an article in the Saints’ Herald:
According to the testimony of Emma Smith and David Whitmer, the angel took the Urim and Thummim from Joseph Smith at the time of the loss of the 116 pages. This was in June 1828, one year before David became involved with the work of translation. David Whitmer could never have been present when the Urim and Thummim were used. All of this he clearly states in his testimony to Brother Traughber:
"With the sanction of David Whitmer, and by his authority, I now state he does not say that Joseph Smith ever translated in his presence by aid of Urim and Thummim, but by means of one dark colored, opaque stone called a ‘Seer Stone,’ which was placed in the crown of a hat, into which Joseph put his face, so as to exclude the external light. Then, a spiritual light would appear before Joseph, upon which was a line of characters from the plates, and under it, the translation in English; at least, so Joseph said." (Saints’ Herald, November 15, 1962, page 16)
Many years ago M. T. Lamb made some important observations regarding Joseph Smith’s strange habit of using his seer stone instead of the Urim and Thummim:
Finally, according to the testimony of Martin Harris, Mr. Smith often used the "seer stone" in place of the Urim and Thummim, even while the later remained in his possession — using it as a mere matter of convenience.
It seems almost too bad that he should thus inadvertently give the whole thing away. You must understand that the Urim and Thummim spoken of, and called throughout the Book of Mormon "the Interpreters," had been provided with great care over 2500 years ago by God himself, for the express purpose of translating these plates. They are often mentioned in the Book of Mormon as exceedingly important. They were preserved with the greatest care, handed down from one generation to another with the plates, and buried with them in the hill Cumorah over 1400 years ago; as sacred as the plates themselves. So sacred that only one man was allowed to handle or use them, the highly favored prophet, Joseph Smith himself. But now, alas! After all this trouble and pains and care on the part of God, and on the part of so many holy men of old, this "Urim and Thummim" is found at last to be altogether superfluous; not needed at all. This "peep stone" found in a neighbor’s well will do the work just as well — and is even more convenient, "for convenience he used the seer stone." So we are left to infer that when he used the Urim and Thummim at all, it was at some inconvenience. And probably he only did it out of regard to the feelings of his God, who had spent so much time and anxiety in preparing it so long ago, and preserving it to the present day for his special use! (The Golden Bible, 1887, pages 250-51)
Although Joseph Smith spent a lot of time staring at his seer stone, it did not seem to help him find the buried treasures he desired. Since Joseph Smith’s failed treasure seeking and translation method for the Book of Mormon were both accomplished through the use of the same magic stone it appears that both efforts were lacking in divine approval. As one former follower of Joseph Smith expressed it, a person must "come out from the company of Joseph the sorcerer."
Here is a picture of that stone:
Susan if you want to see the whole article, it's at http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no95.htm -
57
Mormons phoned for the last time - I hope
by philo ini had a follow up phone call from the mormons today wanting to arrange for house visit no.
2. the first visit had been a game where i asked questions and they wriggled about a bit so as not to address them -- it brought back dub memories, i'm telling you.. it went like this.... who will survive the world's judgement day?
only mormons and exceptional individuals.. how about me?
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ExmormonRobertson
SusanHere,
Here's part of an article talking about Joseph Smith using a stone in the hat to translate the BOM (This is also for Alex):
How were the Plates Translated?Most Mormons believe that Joseph Smith translated the gold plates with what was known as the Urim and Thummim. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote: "From time to time, as his purposes require, the Lord personally, or through the ministry of appointed angels, delivers to chosen prophets a Urim and Thummim to be used in receiving revelations and in translating ancient records from unknown tongues. With the approval of the Lord these prophets are permitted to pass these instruments on to their mortal successors… Because of the sacred nature of these holy instruments, they have not been viewed by most men, and even the times and circumstances under which they have been held by mortals are not clearly set forth… Joseph Smith received the same Urim and Thummim had by the Brother of Jared for it was the one expressly provided for the translation of the Jaredite and Nephite records." (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, by Bruce R. McConkie, p. 818)
Joseph Smith’s mother wrote the following concerning the Urim and Thummim:
That of which I spoke, which Joseph termed a key, was indeed, nothing more nor less than the Urim and Thummim, and it was by this that the angel showed him many things which he saw in vision; by which he could ascertain, at any time, the approach of danger, either to himself or the Record, and on account of which he always kept the Urim and Thummim about his person. (Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet and his Progenitors for Many Generations, page 106; also reproduced in Early Mormon Documents, Vol. 1)
On page 101 of the same book, Lucy Smith claimed that Joseph actually allowed her to examine the Urim and Thummim:
I knew not what he meant, but took the article of which he spoke into my hands, and, upon examination, found that it consisted of two smooth three-cornered diamonds set in glass, and the glasses were set in silver bows, which were connected with each other in much the same way as old fashioned spectacles. He took them again and left me, but said nothing respecting the Record. (Biographical Sketches, page 101)
Although Joseph Smith was supposed to have the Urim and Thummim, the evidence shows that he preferred to use the seer stone found in a well to translate the Book of Mormon. The Mormon historian B. H. Roberts acknowledged the use of one of Joseph Smith’s seer stones. He made the following statement in the Comprehensive History of the Church, Vol. 1, page 129:
The Seer Stone referred to here was a chocolate-colored, somewhat egg-shaped stone which the Prophet found while digging a well in the company of his brother Hyrum, for a Mr. Clark Chase, near Palmyra, N.Y. It possessed the qualities of Urim and Thummim, since by means of it — as described above — as well as by means of the Interpreters found with the Nephite record, Joseph was able to translate the characters engraven on the plates.
Joseph Smith’s father-in-law, Isaac Hale, noticed a definite relationship between the method Joseph Smith used to translate the Book of Mormon and the way he searched for buried treasures. In an affidavit that Isaac Hale provided we find some very interesting information:
I first became acquainted with Joseph Smith, Jr. in November, 1825. He was at that time in the employ of a set of men who were called "money-diggers;" and his occupation was that of seeing, or pretending to see by means of a stone placed in his hat, and his hat closed over his face. In this way he pretended to discover minerals and hidden treasure… Smith, and his father with several other "money-diggers" boarded at my house while they were employed in digging for a mine that they supposed had been opened and worked by the Spaniards, many years since. Young Smith gave the "money-diggers" great encouragement, at first, but when they had arrived in digging, to near the place where he had stated an immense treasure would be found — he said the enchantment was so powerful that he could not see…
After these occurrences, young Smith made several visits at my house, and at length asked my consent to his marrying my daughter Emma. This I refused, and gave him my reasons for so doing; some of which were, that he was a stranger, and followed a business that I could not approve: he then left the place. Not long after this, he returned, and while I was absent from home, carried off my daughter, into the state of New York, where they were married without my approbation or consent… In a short time they returned…
Smith stated to me, that he had given up what he called "glass-looking," and that he expected to work hard for a living, and was willing to do so… Soon after this, I was informed they had brought a wonderful book of Plates down with them… The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods! (The Susquehanna Register, May 1, 1834)
David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon, described how Joseph Smith placed the "seer stone" into a hat to translate the Book of Mormon:
I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. (An Address to All Believers in Christ, by David Whitmer, 1887, p.12)
In a letter written March 27, 1876, Emma Smith acknowledged that the entire Book of Mormon, that we have today, was translated by the use of the seer stone. James E. Lancaster wrote:
How can the testimonies of Emma Smith and David Whitmer, describing the translation of the Book of Mormon with a seer stone, be reconciled with the traditional account of the church that the Book of Mormon was translated by the "interpreters" found in the stone box with the plates? It is the extreme good fortune of the church that we have testimony by Sister Emma Smith Bidamon on this important issue… a woman… wrote to Emma Bidamon, requesting information as to the translation of the Book of Mormon. Emma Bidamon replied… March 27, 1876. Sister Bidamon’s letter states in part:
"Now the first that my husband translated, was translated by the use of the Urim and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color…"
Sister Bidamon’s letter indicated that at first the Book of Mormon was translated by the Urim and Thummim. She refers to the instrument found with the plates. However, this first method was used only for the portion written on the 116 pages of foolscap, which Martin Harris later lost. After that time the translation was done with the seer stone. (Saints’ Herald, November 15, 1962, page 15; Emma’s letter is also reproduced in Early Mormon Documents, Vol. 1, p.532)
David Whitmer frankly admitted that he never did see Joseph Smith use what was later known as the Urim and Thummim (the two stones set in silver bows). This information is found in an article in the Saints’ Herald:
According to the testimony of Emma Smith and David Whitmer, the angel took the Urim and Thummim from Joseph Smith at the time of the loss of the 116 pages. This was in June 1828, one year before David became involved with the work of translation. David Whitmer could never have been present when the Urim and Thummim were used. All of this he clearly states in his testimony to Brother Traughber:
"With the sanction of David Whitmer, and by his authority, I now state he does not say that Joseph Smith ever translated in his presence by aid of Urim and Thummim, but by means of one dark colored, opaque stone called a ‘Seer Stone,’ which was placed in the crown of a hat, into which Joseph put his face, so as to exclude the external light. Then, a spiritual light would appear before Joseph, upon which was a line of characters from the plates, and under it, the translation in English; at least, so Joseph said." (Saints’ Herald, November 15, 1962, page 16)
Many years ago M. T. Lamb made some important observations regarding Joseph Smith’s strange habit of using his seer stone instead of the Urim and Thummim:
Finally, according to the testimony of Martin Harris, Mr. Smith often used the "seer stone" in place of the Urim and Thummim, even while the later remained in his possession — using it as a mere matter of convenience.
It seems almost too bad that he should thus inadvertently give the whole thing away. You must understand that the Urim and Thummim spoken of, and called throughout the Book of Mormon "the Interpreters," had been provided with great care over 2500 years ago by God himself, for the express purpose of translating these plates. They are often mentioned in the Book of Mormon as exceedingly important. They were preserved with the greatest care, handed down from one generation to another with the plates, and buried with them in the hill Cumorah over 1400 years ago; as sacred as the plates themselves. So sacred that only one man was allowed to handle or use them, the highly favored prophet, Joseph Smith himself. But now, alas! After all this trouble and pains and care on the part of God, and on the part of so many holy men of old, this "Urim and Thummim" is found at last to be altogether superfluous; not needed at all. This "peep stone" found in a neighbor’s well will do the work just as well — and is even more convenient, "for convenience he used the seer stone." So we are left to infer that when he used the Urim and Thummim at all, it was at some inconvenience. And probably he only did it out of regard to the feelings of his God, who had spent so much time and anxiety in preparing it so long ago, and preserving it to the present day for his special use! (The Golden Bible, 1887, pages 250-51)
Although Joseph Smith spent a lot of time staring at his seer stone, it did not seem to help him find the buried treasures he desired. Since Joseph Smith’s failed treasure seeking and translation method for the Book of Mormon were both accomplished through the use of the same magic stone it appears that both efforts were lacking in divine approval. As one former follower of Joseph Smith expressed it, a person must "come out from the company of Joseph the sorcerer."
Here is a picture of that stone:
Susan if you want to see the whole article, it's at http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no95.htm -
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Ten Minute Slam on Christianity.(att: FAITH DRUNK)
by Big Jim in(to all faith drunk christian heathens;read this twice and sober up).
a quick ten minute slam of christianity.
we can see that god is powerless to forgive sins without killing something in the process.
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ExmormonRobertson
Do you feel better now Big Jim? Take deep breaths, it will be all right.
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57
Mormons phoned for the last time - I hope
by philo ini had a follow up phone call from the mormons today wanting to arrange for house visit no.
2. the first visit had been a game where i asked questions and they wriggled about a bit so as not to address them -- it brought back dub memories, i'm telling you.. it went like this.... who will survive the world's judgement day?
only mormons and exceptional individuals.. how about me?
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ExmormonRobertson
Sorry SusanHere
I thought you came here because you were an exJW. Forgive my assumption. -
57
Mormons phoned for the last time - I hope
by philo ini had a follow up phone call from the mormons today wanting to arrange for house visit no.
2. the first visit had been a game where i asked questions and they wriggled about a bit so as not to address them -- it brought back dub memories, i'm telling you.. it went like this.... who will survive the world's judgement day?
only mormons and exceptional individuals.. how about me?
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ExmormonRobertson
Let me state for the record, that I believe that SusanHere is not being deceptive in her post. I think she really believes what she is claiming. But I've been where she's at and wish I could open her eyes to what she's gotten into. But right now it's important to her for Mormonism to be true and is really not open to anything that is going to tell her different. At one point it was more important that the church be true than whether I was going to have salvation or not. I feel that since she is also exJW, that is has jumped from the pan into the fire.
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57
Mormons phoned for the last time - I hope
by philo ini had a follow up phone call from the mormons today wanting to arrange for house visit no.
2. the first visit had been a game where i asked questions and they wriggled about a bit so as not to address them -- it brought back dub memories, i'm telling you.. it went like this.... who will survive the world's judgement day?
only mormons and exceptional individuals.. how about me?
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ExmormonRobertson
It's not "Official" LDS history of course, but several of the witnesses who signed the Book of Mormon reported it. There is an excellent web site that gives documentation of this and many other facts Mormons wouldn't want you to know. It's at www.utlm.org It's about the best of the lot.
