Posts by Farkel

102

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

we hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.

would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?

it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.

Farkel

larc,

Thanks for the info.

: I forgot which one. He wrote a docuement called The Report that he promotes.

In otherwords, he's a total crackpot. I've read The Report. He's a crackpot alright. I'd love to take him on head-to-head, but I don't really care about non-dub stuff. I'm only interested in discussing JW stuff. If a dub wants to leave and become a total crackpot, that's fine. If a dub wants to stay a dub and stay a total crackpot, that's also ok. I focus on working with the latter. The former are on their own: they've already left Watchtower Life(tm). After that, the rest is up to them. The latter are still prisoners of the Brooklyn Gestapo.

Farkel
Boy Scout Class

102

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

we hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.

would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?

it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.

Farkel

: So, what is the solution?

: The Bible...Bible prophecy...

: 1) Isaiah 30:26 shows that Jehovah God is going to "discipline" the organization, for a host of bad practices.

: 2) Jeremiah 23:19,20 & Zephaniah 3:11-13 shows a "remnant" from the organization will "understand" and will be "humbled" after what has happened, that is, AFTER the discipline has been administered...some "42 months of trampling" by the political nations of the earth. That's 3 1/2 years or 42 months -- so called the "Gentile Times" in the King James Version, at Luke 21:24. -- Please see Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 11:2; 13:5.

: 3) Micah 4:6,7 shows the nation will be built up, after the God-inflicted discipline, to greater heights than ever before...a "mighty nation," with God's blessings.

Rubbish. You're talking like Fred Franz. Those were ancient people and if any of those "prophecies" happened they had their fulfillment thousands of years ago. Show how ANY of those references have any other than a local fulfillment millenia ago. Be sure to cite the entire context and not a few verses here-and-there. That's an old WT trick.

I'm curious with how many Bible references you can come up with that make it clear that ancient prophecies had "minor" and "major" fulfillments. Care to enlighten me and us?

Farkel

102

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

we hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.

would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?

it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.

Farkel

: But with all the cautionary and accusatory remarks from others, few have acknowledged the good they have gained from association with Jehovah's Witnesses.

Unfortunately, the same reasoning can be applied to Adolf Hitler: he took the Germans out of their worst depression ever, put them on the Gold Standard, brought their economy up to first-class standards, gave them all jobs and after a devasting WWI an aweseome sense of worth and national pride. All in just two decades, and after their country was treated like pond scum by the victorious Allied armies. He united, fed, clothed an entire nation and rebuilt the ruins of their cities in a incredibly small amount of time.

I'm not trying to compare the WTS with Adolf Hitler point-by-point, but I am pointing out that some good deeds done by any organization must be weighed against the bad deeds also done. The WTS is sorely lacking in the balance. Surely you must realize that. What modern religion callously has sacrificed human lives over blood (because of being afraid of their OWN legal liability), marriages and families willy-nilly over weak arguments regarding blood, permitted types of sex in marriage with consenting spouses, alternative military service, organ transplants, vaccinations and de-facto shunning for merely being caught smoking. The WTS has sacrificed entire family relationships by Dfing a family member for smoking. In WatchtowerLand(tm) the treatment and DFing for being caught smoking and for being a child-rapist or serial killer (and being unrepentant) is exactly the same.

Do you argue that with these reprehensible practices, the WTS should be vigorously defended for whatever "good" it has accomplished? If you do, then Adolf Hitler must be given the same treatment.

I've noticed you don't respond to my comments. Do you think I'm a jerk or something? Don't think my arguments make sense? If not, why not. If so, why won't you address what I've written?

Farkel
Sledge-Hammer Class

102

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

we hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.

would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?

it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.

Farkel

: Keep an open mind. I guess the biggest issue I’m concerned with- is bitterness of having been hurt causing us to reject the lock, stock and barrel. I will try to explain this latter, Monica. Meanwhile fight bitterness. Its not good for you.

Unfortunately, "bitterness" is a common JW expression towards those who ex-JW opponents who present arguments they cannot answer. I have many times quietly presented sincere, non-threatening logical, Biblical arguments in the most respectful manner. When my JW oppoenent realizes s/he doesn't stand a chance against rational evidence, s/he invariably comes back with either:

1) "You're just 'bitter,' that's all
or,
2) "Where else can you go?"

The first is an ad hominem, and the second is a red-herring, both logical fallacies; but in dub-think, they seem like perfectly rational rebuttals. In any case, they do NOT address arguments put forward. Being an ex-JW (like most ex-JWs) I'm in a position to both understand JW thinking AND understand rational thinking. There IS a difference, and it saddens me to see JWs sincerely pull out the old "you're just bitter" cliche when they cannot address the issues. They are attacking the person and the motives of the person, and totally ignoring the arguments. It saddens me because I did the very same thing, and I thought I was making sense. In reality, I was just trying to beat up the messenger, and ignore the actual message.

Farkel

102

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

we hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.

would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?

it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.

Farkel

normie67,

Sigh.

: js2law......interesting post. I thought I might respond to it. I feel EXACTLY as you do.How can you totally reject the Org when it tries to to spread the Good News!!!

I think 6 billion ever-so-soon-to-be slaughtered humans would not really want to call it good news. They won't have much time to sing praises to that there "Good News" with their guts spattered everywhere and dubs climbing all over their mangled bodies and the mangled bodies of their little babies to take over their homes and cars. When you will ever learn this simple fact about the JW religion?: the Good News is ONLY good for those in your religion. It's is eternal death for everyone else, including innocent children.

: Yes the Good News IS different today. In the First Century the "Kingdom was in their midst" i.e Jesus.

Where did Jesus say there would be more than one kind of "Good News?" WHERE?

: But today the Kingdom is Established in 1914!!! Thats our message to people!!!

Some kingdom: 1) It's invisible without one shred of evidence that it was established. Nobody is aware of it but dubs. It hasn't done anything. It hasn't changed anything and all of it is INVISIBLE and so is the evidence! 2) Christ has being "reigning" now for 87 full years and we ain't seen squat from his reign. Almost four generations have been produced and we still ain't seen squat.

Just what EXACTLY are you celebrating?

Did you ever read my "1914 for Dummies?" Well, if not here it is. YOU explain how this idiotic drivel from Brooklyn gives any thinking person a reason to believe in 1914:

-------------------

"607 B.C." - the fundamental date critical to supporting the entire JW framework of prophetic chronology. This date, unique to only JWs, has been rejected by virtually EVERY other Bible historian and archeologist.

"1914" A.D. - the single most important date in JW doctrine, and is the result of using 607 B.C as an "anchor date", using the book of Daniel, Chapter 4, as proof.

This is based upon the following, simple reasoning:

7 "times" doesn't mean "7 times". It means "7 years".

But,"7 years" doesn't really mean 7 "years", either. It means "7 years of days".

But, the "days" in "years of days" doesn't really mean "years of days, in which the days actually mean "days", but means "years of days, in which the "days" actually mean "years".

Therefore, it is easy for even a fool to see that "7 times" REALLY means "7 years" but which really means "7 years of days", but which then really means "7 years of days which aren't really days, but years", or simply stated "7 years of days of which days are really years". To put it even so a child can understand it, it means that the "times" aren't "times" at all, but are "years", which aren't "years" at all, but are "years of days", which aren't "days" at all, but are "years" AFTER all, even though they were originally CALLED "times"!

Got all that? There's more.

Strangely, however, for all of this to work, this fulfillment, based upon an ANCIENT text, still requires the use of the ANCIENT calendar for the MODERN fulfillment to work out to 1914. Therefore, ancient text + ancient calendar = modern date in modern calendar.

When doing your calculations, don't forget that there is no "zero year" from B.C to A.D. C.T. Russell forgot that and was quite embarrassed about it. The official WTBS explanation in later, revised, editions of his books was that "the battery was very low in his calculator at that time" and he wasn't aware of it until after the material was printed.

Lastly, the book of Daniel was prophesied to remain "sealed" until the "last days", which, as we know, began in 1914, according to the simple reasoning just presented. So, Russell had to figure out a way to, somehow "unseal" Daniel before it was prophesied that Daniel WOULD be "unsealed" so he could then put forth a prophecy which pointed to exactly when Daniel WAS to be "unsealed", namely at the start of the "last days", in 1914. Russell, therefore, successfully used a "sealed" book to calculate the exact date it was to be "unsealed", which at that time it was officially, "unsealed", but Russell "unsealed" it before that, because he wanted to know beforehand when it WOULD be "unsealed", because only THEN would he know when the "last days" were to start, which was, of course, when Daniel actually WAS to be "unsealed". Got all that?

I apologize to the reader for using so many words, but, this stuff is so, well, "DEEP"!

-----------------

: Its interesting that nobody but nobody discusses the future of the Earth!!
Most people are busy living and not busy dealing in fantasies.

: That was God's original purpose, Right?, for man to live forever on Earth???

Yeah? Why did he make sure he KILLed almost EVERYONE on the earth not that long after Eve met a talking snake? God of the Bible, more than any other creature that ever existed did more than any other creature that ever existed to make sure that more people were wiped off the earth than he ever did to make sure people stayed on the earth. If he didn't do it personally, he ordered it done. God of the Bible is bloodthirsty, period. He screwed up Cain because Cain didn't give him BLOOD. He made sure the Israelites were up-to-their arms in BLOOD sacrifices to HIM. And worse than all of that, he made sure his own son gave him that BLOOD and death that he craves so much. So much for your God "wanting" to have man live forever without that God getting his piles and piles of blood that he demands. For man to "live forever" on earth, God has to make sure the world suffers the greatest bloodbath in all of history, worse than any other bloodbath ever, and probably worse than all of them combined. THAT is the unvarnished truth about your "Good News."

: Despite wrong understandings in the Past the Org continues the Preaching work WORLDWIDE......The same message WORLDWIDE!!!!!

And just what is that message? "Believe what we say or God will slaughter you." "Join us or God will slaughter you." "Believe our ancient diaper-clad leaders even when they are totally goofy, or God will slaughter you." "Buy our books, or God will slaughter you." "Shun your children, and parents or any of your friends who disagree with what we say, or God will slaughter you." "Sell our books or God will slaughter you."

Some message.

: That and the WORLDWIDE Brotherhood and the Unity diplayed is the Positives that keep me in the Org, despite numerous doubts!!

The word "unity" is not the same as the expression "forced conformity, or God will slaughter you." If dubs had any freedom of expression at all without impunity, you would see that "unity" vaporize. That "unity" only exists because your leaders have terrorized you, bullied you, lied to you and extort you into believing whatever they put forward, or you will face the harshest of punishiments: you will be forever shunned by all those you love, AND God will slaughter you.

Some "unity."

: Farkel, always love your perspective on things(if your the same Farkel from old H2O)....

Thanks! Yep, I'm me. No one is big enough of a jerk to even attempt to impersonate me.

: just curious you mentioned that Jehovah hasn't used an Organization???? What about the Nation of Israel, Ist Century Christians and their numerous Congs??? Just curious!

What I said was, the Bible is crystal clear that God ALWAYS worked through individuals. Period. What "organization" was Noah a part of. The flood was God's most spectacular work ever on the face of this earth, but Noah wasn't aware he had to be a part of an "organization" to warn about it. What "organization" did Isaiah belong to? Daniel? Ezekiel? Moses? Jeremiah? Elijah? Elisha? John the Baptist? Even Jesus Christ himself?

Even Chuck Russell got it right when he said "organization is wholly unnecessary." The WTS even screwed that part up. God has ALWAYS worked through individuals.

You've been brainwashed and lied to and conned by a bunch of self-serving hypocrites in Brookly, Normie67. Perhaps someday you'll see that. Until you do, they'll keep lying to you, taking away your freedoms and making ever more promises that they can't deliver. They've never delivered on ONE promise they've made. Their success in prophecy amounts to a 100% failure rate.

They're just men pretending to be directed by God. Nothing more.

: The 1914 date is arguable, GTR, COC and etc. But honestly what othe rDate was as important as 1914...ie WW1 many point to 1914 as turning point in human history!!

Read GTR and you'll see that those "many" you speak about are idiots.

Farkel

36

Do You Think That You Might Turn Back To Jehovah?

by Englishman in

jw
friends

i`ve never yet been snubbed by a jw.

the reason is that i refuse point blank to speak to them unless they speak to me first.

so, if i`m visiting my jw mum and jw visitors arrive which they often do i just smile, raise one eyebrow slightly, and look `em straight in the eye!.

Farkel

: How do you reply to being asked: ”Do you think that you might turn back to Jehovah one day, perhaps?”

"As soon as you do."

Farkel

102

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

we hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.

would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?

it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.

Farkel

: I'm only suggesting that God has always used flawed men and flawed organizations. How can we totally dismiss this one because we have discovered it is flawed?

I can't recall where God ever used flawed me to do flawed things. I can recall JWs ever making the statement that flawed Bibled prophets gave flawed prophecies. I can't recall JWs ever showing any evidence that God "used" flawed people in the Bible to make laws and flawed policies. One of the problems with the JW leadership is that they demand all the reverence and respect of men who are directly being used by God, but without any of the responsibilities and accountability that goes with it.

As for God "always" using organizations, that is simply not the case. In fact, I have yet to see ONE example from the Bible where God dealt his will through an organization. It was always through individuals. Despite all the rubbish Chuck Russell, Joe Rutherford and Fred Franz said about "classes", and "organizations," Noah was an individual. So was Moses, and all the prophets including Jesus. Paul was an individual. God ALWAYS communicated to his people through individual people, and not organizations. The word doesn't even appear anywhere in the Bible. Lest you think the so-called "Governing Body" in Jerusalem in the first Century was an "organization," I suggest you re-read the account again. They were anything BUT! An individual named Paul went there to straighten THEM out!

I know that as a JW you hear the term "organization" so much it makes your mind numb, but when you actually sit back and look at the truth, it is just more deceit from Brooklyn used to justify their existence.

Farkel

102

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

we hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.

would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?

it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.

Farkel

: So would it be wrong to accept the fact that the WTS, despite its flaws, has many good scriptural truths to share. Can we reject what they have pressed to the world:

I suggest you please re-read AlanF's comments. The problem is the WTS has spend over eighty years vilifying other Christian faiths and even haughtily MOCKING the many good things those faiths have done. Taking care of millions and millions of hungry and sick people, for example. The WTS sarcastically claims they're making "rice" Christians. But now, the tide has turned and the WTS is facing the same music it has loudly and harshly played for those eighty or so years. Many of their defenders are crying for mercy, yet the WTS has not extended one OUNCE of mercy to those who disagree with them or believe even slightly different than them.

I was a JW for over two decades and pioneered for years. I know. I saw it firsthand. The elders would get together and when they spoke about the leader of the Catholic Church, they would call him "The Poop" and laugh. We were taught by word and by example to despise those who believed differently.

The WTS has held other faiths up to the highest of standards, and can't even measure up to those standards as AlanF pointed out, and well-meaning and decent people like yourself who are defending their good points have a hard time understanding why so many people would dislike the leaders of your religion and what they've made many of their followers become. For a good reminder of the kind of hate your religion has dished out towards those of other faiths, I suggest you read Joe Rutherford's book "Enemies." One would be hard-pressed to find a book more full of hate than that one.

:...God has a name,

Only JWs have made such a big point about God's name, yet they won't even bother to use the most-commonly accepted pronunciation of it; preferring instead to use the "common" pronunciation. Let me ask you this: do you think God is so puny that he really cares that people make such a big deal about his name? He didn't even bother to make absolutely certain that there was no question about how his name should be spelled and pronounced, did he? That being the case, isn't there a big hint here that he's not that concerned that we know his exact name? When you pray to THE Creator, just who are you praying to? Certainly not Baal. When you pray to THE Heavenly Father of all mankind, surely God knows you are calling to Him.

:His Kingdom is to solve man’s problems,

That is certainly not a unique JW belief, but JW's do put more of a materialistic spin on it than others: a beautiful paradise, human perfection, perfect health, and everlasting HUMAN life. (Not to mention possessing all those beautiful homes and luxury cars in Beverly Hills.)

: the Earth is to become a paradise as God purposed, man will live endlessly on Earth as intended,

The only problem about that is the JW leaders are so impatient for all that to happen that they predict when it should happen. They've done that about a dozen times and they've always been wrong.

: those who died will return in a resurrection of the dead rather that burn in hell,

That's all fine and dandy too, but it has nothing to do with living and everything to do with dying. We'll all eventually find out (or not) what happens when we die. JWs and their leaders need to spend their time learning to live the lives they have and let death and its consequences take care of itself.

:and this good news is to be preached in all the earth.

It's NOT good news to six BILLION people including infant children. They will all be slaughtered. That's the part of the "Good News(tm)" that JWs don't like to discuss. It's only good news to THEM and not even ALL of them, either. The JW religion is the most self-serving and arrogant religion that I know about. Even all the preaching work is done because they want to save their own butts and they are told they can't save their own butts if they don't get out and get new butts in the Kingdom Halls. For the vast majority of JWs, field service is neither joyous nor rewarding. It's hard work and most wouldn't do it if they could get away with not doing it.

: With all its flaws, no one else is doing this internationally, staying out of politics and wars in each nation, except Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The Quakers and many other pacifist groups do the very same thing. And they don't wake people up on Sunday morning to tell them their going to get slaughtered by God if they don't join their faiths.

I do appreciate your comments, and perhaps I've been unnecessarily harsh on you. I don't mean anything personally towards you. I'm just delivering my version of a wake-up call. In my opinion there is just not enough good in the JW faith to make up for the bad. It's time for new wineskins. The old ones are rotten. Jesus said that, not me. :)

Farkel

17

Anti JW newspaper article

by Freenow in

jw
friends

this looks like a friendly forum and i will do my very first posting here because i finally feel i can trust someone to help me.

i published an article on the local newspaper against the jw and part of my sour experiences while i was a jw; they only let me use 300 words and deleted the most important ones ofcourse.

my problem is that iam now getting very negative responses to my article and i need you all to help me write something positive for us ex-jw's for a change.

Farkel

Here's five positive things that just came off the top-of-my-head that I can say about the JW religion:

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

(I've got lots more where they came from!)

Farkel

12

I-CHING, U-CHING, We ALL-CHING, CHING

by Farkel in

jw
friends

in a post below i noticed that your posted was edited twice:.

: i hope this helps you make your decision.. :i-ching.

: edited by - fred hall on 22 march 2001 15:41:40. : edited by - iching on 22 march 2001 15:47:44. care to explain what happened here?

Farkel

Now I get it. You FAKED it with a cut-and-paste! Well, I'm still a newbie and am naive to think that people would actually go out of their way to trick newbies like me.

It worked, though! Thanks for the explanation.

Farkel