Posts by StephaneLaliberte

11

$13.5M award vacated in Jehovah’s Witness abuse case

by StephaneLaliberte in

ruling gives church chance to turn over disputed documents.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2016/apr/14/jehovahs-witness-lopez-sex-abuse-appeal/.

StephaneLaliberte

Ruling gives church chance to turn over disputed documents

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2016/apr/14/jehovahs-witness-lopez-sex-abuse-appeal/

103

NEW BLOOD CARD w/ FORCED COMPLIANCE also LEGALISM

by apocalypse in

i have looked around and i don't see this covered, so i am starting a thread.. 1) the new "blood card" goes beyond being just a "blood card".. 2) a new edict concerning compliance.. pay attention to the changes.. first, the new card is termed "advance decision to refuse specified medical treatment".

the big change with the card itself is that it includes an 'override' of your "power of attorney".

this is huge.

StephaneLaliberte

Dam, Blondie, you are right, this has been around since 2004! So, all this is basically over the changing of a word :

"You may also want to provide copies ... " (2004)

to

"As a reminder, you should provide copies ..." (2016)

I don't know how the enforcement will play out but I suspect that they could become harder with time. However, in all honesty, it seems that my elders simply ignored the "photocopy" suggestion made in 2004! Never felt pressured in that aspect.

103

NEW BLOOD CARD w/ FORCED COMPLIANCE also LEGALISM

by apocalypse in

i have looked around and i don't see this covered, so i am starting a thread.. 1) the new "blood card" goes beyond being just a "blood card".. 2) a new edict concerning compliance.. pay attention to the changes.. first, the new card is termed "advance decision to refuse specified medical treatment".

the big change with the card itself is that it includes an 'override' of your "power of attorney".

this is huge.

StephaneLaliberte

Bafh, you are right, the "no duress/undue-influence" statement was there before, however, you could easily sign it and throw it away. This is exactly what I did for many years when I was in.

This time, its different: The brothers and sisters receive the instruction to make at least three (3) photocopies: Two for the two witnesses that signed it and one for the secretary of the congregation. In addition, to ensure absolute compliance, they even request access to your medical records! Hence, the "no duress/undue-influence" statement cannot possibly be true today!

Now, how could not signing this ADD derail all the way to disfellowshipping? Imagine this: The secretary of the congregation repeatedly ask a brother for his photocopies: "Don't take it wrong brother, but it feels like you don't want to make photocopies. We have a photocopier right here in the hall, I can help you with this. This arrangement is made to protect you. Why would you reject it? Do you at least keep your card with you?" With unceasing questioning, the brother could become exasperated and tell the Elder that he doesn't believe in the blood doctrine and won't carry the card, nor make photocopies. With loving kindness, the Elder than visit the brother with a second elder to help him come to his senses. As those Elders are unable to convince the brother who has been lead astray, they then form a comity for Apostasy. This scenario is not all that far fetched.

15 years ago, a brother looked into my wallet (while I paid for something) and noticed I didn't have my ADD. He brought one at the following meeting where I signed it on the spot with two witnesses. Today, I realize that this was "undue influence". But at least, I still had the option to threw that newly signed card away. Today, they want photocopies and your medical record! I think that there is room for legal matter over this.

If anyone has copies of the Canadian instructions and Cards, please let me know as I think I will bring this to the attention of my local hospitals.

103

NEW BLOOD CARD w/ FORCED COMPLIANCE also LEGALISM

by apocalypse in

i have looked around and i don't see this covered, so i am starting a thread.. 1) the new "blood card" goes beyond being just a "blood card".. 2) a new edict concerning compliance.. pay attention to the changes.. first, the new card is termed "advance decision to refuse specified medical treatment".

the big change with the card itself is that it includes an 'override' of your "power of attorney".

this is huge.

StephaneLaliberte

I think I have the perfect answer for that one:

If an elder, or anyone pushes you to sign the card and give them a sample, ask them to read the 8th statement:

STATEMENT OF WITNESSES: The person who signed this document did so in my presence. He or she appears to be of sound mind and free from duress, fraud or undue influence. I am 18 years of age or older.

Then say: According to that statement, you should hand me that piece of paper and let me do what ever I please with it, never suggesting further actions on my part. I know you want that statement to be truthful and not a lie, or a half truth, so, I expect your full collaboration to leave the matter with me and not pressure me in any way.

If for some reason this derails all the way through to your disfellowshipping (which would actually surprise me), than you have an amazing legal case on your hands. Especially if you record every communication you have with them.

103

NEW BLOOD CARD w/ FORCED COMPLIANCE also LEGALISM

by apocalypse in

i have looked around and i don't see this covered, so i am starting a thread.. 1) the new "blood card" goes beyond being just a "blood card".. 2) a new edict concerning compliance.. pay attention to the changes.. first, the new card is termed "advance decision to refuse specified medical treatment".

the big change with the card itself is that it includes an 'override' of your "power of attorney".

this is huge.

StephaneLaliberte

And if there are elders snooping around, they could show up at the hospital, with your photocopied ADD and the witnesses that signed it with you and then, that would be enough for the hospital for you not to get a BT. I would never risk it.

103

NEW BLOOD CARD w/ FORCED COMPLIANCE also LEGALISM

by apocalypse in

i have looked around and i don't see this covered, so i am starting a thread.. 1) the new "blood card" goes beyond being just a "blood card".. 2) a new edict concerning compliance.. pay attention to the changes.. first, the new card is termed "advance decision to refuse specified medical treatment".

the big change with the card itself is that it includes an 'override' of your "power of attorney".

this is huge.

StephaneLaliberte

Data Dog, you are right, they won't disfellowship people for not giving in photocopies of their ADD. However, I do believe that those who do not follow that instruction will not be viewed as "privilege" material. And depending on the local BOE, some could live much greater pressure.

103

NEW BLOOD CARD w/ FORCED COMPLIANCE also LEGALISM

by apocalypse in

i have looked around and i don't see this covered, so i am starting a thread.. 1) the new "blood card" goes beyond being just a "blood card".. 2) a new edict concerning compliance.. pay attention to the changes.. first, the new card is termed "advance decision to refuse specified medical treatment".

the big change with the card itself is that it includes an 'override' of your "power of attorney".

this is huge.

StephaneLaliberte

Finkelstein: They would NOT disfellowship you only if they felt you gave in to fear. Hence, if you said "yes" to a blood transfusion moments before going under the knife and showed sincere remorse, they would not disfellowship you. However, if you have some other directive that overrides your JW's ADD (as suggested by apocalypse), than, that will show that you do not believe in their blood doctrine at all: you'll be disfellowshiped.

103

NEW BLOOD CARD w/ FORCED COMPLIANCE also LEGALISM

by apocalypse in

i have looked around and i don't see this covered, so i am starting a thread.. 1) the new "blood card" goes beyond being just a "blood card".. 2) a new edict concerning compliance.. pay attention to the changes.. first, the new card is termed "advance decision to refuse specified medical treatment".

the big change with the card itself is that it includes an 'override' of your "power of attorney".

this is huge.

StephaneLaliberte

apocalypse: Up until this letter, you could go in ER, get a blood transfusion and the doctors would not talk to the elders about it. And if the elders ended up knowing about that transfusion somehow, you could say: "Oups, my bad... forgot to renew my ADD after I damaged my entire wallet while swimming in the lake." You wouldn't be DFd for this. You probably wouldn't loose any privileges as well!

Now, since the elders have a copy of a document with your signature on it, they could very well hear the doctor say: "I have another document that overrides what you have." With this information, they'll DF you.

103

NEW BLOOD CARD w/ FORCED COMPLIANCE also LEGALISM

by apocalypse in

i have looked around and i don't see this covered, so i am starting a thread.. 1) the new "blood card" goes beyond being just a "blood card".. 2) a new edict concerning compliance.. pay attention to the changes.. first, the new card is termed "advance decision to refuse specified medical treatment".

the big change with the card itself is that it includes an 'override' of your "power of attorney".

this is huge.

StephaneLaliberte

As a reminder, you should provide copies of your completed Advance Decision document to (1) those who served as witnesses, (2) your General Practitioner (doctor), and (3) your congregation secretary.

This is coercion. Someone saying no to this instruction (not giving a copy of his ADD to the secretary), will be deemed week/not in good standing. Sure its not written word for word in the letter, but we know full well that this is what it is. Hence, privileges such as holding the mic, pioneering or saying prayers will be withheld. Eventually, with enough pressure, they will find that brother or sister at fault for other things and form a JC. While, all along, everything started with the brother not making a copy of his ADD.

You may believe that filling out the ADD, sending them copies and then, going to a lawyer and doctors to give them different sets of instruction will get you out of this gem. Well. No. The photocopy of your instructions will allow them to speak for you. At one point or another, the doctors will have to tell them that they do not have that right as the patient has signed other directives that override the photocopies you elders have. When that happens, you'll wake up and find yourself disfellowshiped. There is also the other scenario where your legal representatives are not even around in the hospital you land in. However, JWs manage to send in HLC elders with your photocopies in and then, you die for lack of blood.

23

Wt "study" Participation, is it a "True Believer" Indication?-- or not?

by prologos in

in our congregation, the elders rarely comment.

the majority rarely comment, 2 sisters, vehemently, and often comment.

since in their case, it can not possibly be" teaching in the congregation", is participation in the wt "study"in general an affirmation of faith?

StephaneLaliberte

As a group, yes. When the people do not have the freedom to truly express their minds, the only thing left is passive resistance. For instance, decreasing participation in the following areas: field service, comments at the hall, brothers reaching out for responsibilities, financial contributions, attendance at the meetings, construction projects, preparing (highlighting) the study articles, etc.

Personally, I decreased my participation in all these things EXCEPT for the comments! I truly enjoyed making “deep” comments while clearly being “a week one”. It was not the thought of helping others that drove me, it was the fact that I knew I was bothering many “spiritual” brothers who could not understand how I managed to do this while not doing anything else!

Heck, from time to time, I would even talk with brothers at the end of the meetings, explaining how their talk or comments were not always in line with current “new light”. Sure, there were some who were genuine and said thanks. These were not really fun as it was all “BS” to me anyway. My true pleasure and satisfaction was with the ones that would boil in anger while having to “take it” from a no body.

Boy, I’d go back just for those little moments. On second thoughts, naaaahh.