Once a person is forced to think that perhaps they don't have all the answers it is a refreshings experience to realize that mankinds salvation maybe a lot greater then we are willing to see.
The information below is not mine and I don't agree with all of it however I must say it has caused me to rethink some of my narrow views once held as a witness I hope it does the same for you.
Universal Reconciliation
‘For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him (Jesus), and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.’ (Col 1: 19, 20).
Introduction
When we study the scriptures on the final destiny of unbelievers, we meet an apparent contradiction.
Some scriptures seem to say that all the human race will be saved. Consider the following:
‘For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive’ (1 Cor 15: 22-24).
‘...God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of believers’ (1 Tim 4: 10).
‘For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him (Jesus), and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.’ (Col 1: 19, 20).
Other scriptures appear to teach that unbelievers will suffer eternal torment.
‘They will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever ...’ (Rev 14: 10, 11).
‘... for whom black darkness has been reserved for ever’ (Jude 13).
‘Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life’ (Mat 25: 46).
How can we reconcile this apparent contradiction in the scriptures? How can both teachings be correct?
Universal Salvation
We will begin by considering the scriptures that lead us to believe that all will eventually be saved. No scripture standing alone is conclusive on this point, but the evidence of several when put together is extremely strong.
Revelation 5: 13 reads, ‘And every created thing that is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power for ever and ever.”’ Every created being is heard praising God. This could hardly happen while 90 per cent of the human race was permanently lost and suffering agonising torment!
1 Corinthians 15: 22-24 strongly states universal salvation: ‘For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.’ Traditionalists tend to interpret this as ‘All who are in Christ will be made alive’; but that is not what the book says. Paul here simply states that all die in Adam, and in Christ all will be made alive, though not at the same time or all in this age. Salvation is not for all in this life, but in progressive ages and stages.
We find further evidence of this in 1 Peter 3: 19-20. We read that ‘Christ in the spirit went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, ...’ These rather difficult verses are clarified a little further on in chapter 4 verse 6: ‘For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to God.’ Peter is not here referring to the righteous saints of old; he is speaking of those before the flood of whom God said that ‘every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually’ (Gen 6: 5). We see even these eventually becoming alive in the spirit.
Colossians chapter 1 verses 16, 19 and 20 carry a lot of weight. ‘For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. ... For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.’ These verses clearly state that God created all things through Jesus, and reconciled all things to himself through Jesus. They even imply that spirits which are now evil will eventually be reconciled to God.
Another scripture helps establish the case for the salvation of all: 1 Tim 4: 10 says, ‘...God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of believers’. This verse implies that God saves all, but saves believers in some special sense. For believers, as I see it, there is salvation from sin, sickness and many other evils in this life, and salvation from the coming judgement. For unbelievers salvation is not till later.
One more scripture among many others is worth quoting: ‘For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things’ (Rom 11: 36). Must we add to this “except 90 or maybe 99 per cent of the human race, the crown and glory of His creation, which He made in His own image to rule the universe, who are destined for perpetual torment in hell”?
Eternal Damnation
We will now consider the Bible’s teaching on eternal damnation. The Bible speaks of eternal fire, eternal punishment, eternal destruction and eternal judgement. Everyone who believes in the inspiration of Scripture must take these statements seriously. Yet no one who believes in and experiences a God of love can feel comfortable with the idea of billions of their fellow creatures of the human race suffering perpetual torture with no hope of any end. Does the Bible really state without doubt that they will?
Aion and Aionios
The doctrine of eternal punishment rests on the meaning of two Greek words: the noun aion (aiwn) and its adjective aionios (aiwnioV).
The noun aion is used in several different ways in the New Testament. The way that concerns us here is its use in phrases like eis ton aiona (eiV ton aiwna - literally to the eon) and eis aionas aionon (eiV aiwnaV aiwnwn - literally to eons of eons). In traditional translations these phrases are translated for ever and for ever and ever. For example, 'The smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever' (Rev 14: 10, 11). The adjective aionios has traditionally been translated eternal or everlasting. We find both the positive phrases eternal life, eternal inheritance etc and the negative phrases eternal fire, eternal judgment, eternal destruction and eternal punishment.
Have these words and phrases been translated correctly into English? Or could the translators have got it wrong?
How can anyone know for certain what any ancient Greek or Hebrew word means, now that all the people who spoke those languages have long since departed this life? The answer is that we must look in all the places in the Bible, or other available literature of the time, where the words are used. We then have to find a meaning that fits all the different contexts. In the case of Greek we can search through both the New Testament and the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament).
Several phrases in both the Septuagint and the New Testament show that often eis ton aiona cannot be translated for ever.
'He shall be your servant for ever' (Deut 15: 17).
'Will you take him as a slave for ever?' (Job 41: 4).
'That he may appear before the Lord and stay there for ever' (1 Sam 1: 22).
'Its smoke shall go up for ever' (Is 34: 10).
'The earth with her bars was about me for ever' (Jonah 2: 6).
'No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you' (Mat 21: 19).
'You will never wash my feet' (John 13: 8).
'I will never eat meat again' (1 Cor 8: 13).
All these phrases are clearly limited in time. Many of them imply for life.
The following phrases in the New Testament show that aionios cannot always be translated eternal:
'The mystery hidden for long ages past' literally 'hidden to aionios times' (Rom 16:25).
'Before the beginning of time' literally 'before aionios times' (2 Tim 1: 9 and Titus 1: 2).
Many writers, myself included, have taught that since aion literally means an age these phrases are correctly translated for the age and for ages of ages. Further they say that, since aion means an age, the adjective aionios must mean age-lasting rather than eternal or everlasting. Punishment and judgement are therefore age-lasting rather than everlasting. They do not continue endlessly throughout eternity, but finish when their purpose is accomplished. (The excellent writer and man of God, Andrew Jukes is probably the original source of this teaching.)
While I totally agree with that conclusion, I now believe that this means of reaching it is not correct. I believe the error stems from a failure to study the Hebrew that underlies the Greek. It is certainly true that in some contexts in the New Testament aion means age. However when in English we have the phrases for ever and for ever and ever, the literal Greek is to the aions and to the aions of the aions. To the age and to the ages of the ages make no sense. However both theses phrases occur commonly in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew phrase to olam. The Greek word aionios is also used to translate this Hebrew word olam.
This Hebrew noun olam does not mean an age. Rather it comes from a verb root alam meaning to hide. The word olam implies hidden time. The phrase to olam looks forward as far as we can see to the future time horizon, beyond which everything is hidden. The phrase from olam looks backward as far as we can see to the past time horizon, beyond which everything is hidden.
When we turn to the New Testament we find that the noun aion and the adjective aionios are used in exactly the same way. They look backwards or forwards to the time horizon, beyond which we cannot see. These words refer to the hidden spiritual realm, which is before, throughout and after time.
The things of God belong to a realm that is beyond time. Eternal life, or as I would prefer to say, aeonian life does not simply mean life that goes on for ever and ever. Rather it means spiritual life that we can experience here and now, and which belongs to a realm that is above and outside time. Jesus said: 'This is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent' (John 17: 3) Similarly aeonian judgment is not judgment that goes on for ever and ever. Rather it is a judgment that takes place in the hidden realm of the spirit.
Science also has a contribution to make on this subject. Both time and space had a beginning, maybe at the big bang. They will also have an end, maybe when the universe collapses in on itself. God himself is outside space and outside time. He made them both. If time ceases to be, will eternity have any meaning?
I have studied the meaning of the Greek and Hebrew words in much greater detail, as well as scientific aspects of the subject, in an article entitled The Aeonian Realm.
The Rich Man and Lazarus
What about the well-known story in Luke chapter 16 of the rich man and Lazarus and ‘the great chasm fixed’ between them after they died? Most people never look in any detail at this passage, and just assume that Jesus was talking about individual salvation, and destiny after death. Let’s take a closer look.
The context of this passage is set a few verses earlier: ‘The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.’ Jesus was speaking to the spiritually privileged people of his day. The rich man, who was dressed in purple and lived in luxury, was a picture of them. The poor beggar, Lazarus, at his gate clothed in rags with dogs licking his wounds pictures the spiritual outsider. Dogs are unclean animals.
Both of them die, and we find Lazarus not in heaven, but in Abraham’s bosom. How could an ignorant heathen like Lazarus end up in Abraham’s bosom, while a son of Abraham was in torment? The rich man continually addressed Abraham as father, but Abraham never called him my son. This story was shocking and offensive to its original hearers.
Let us now consider the chasm. The Greek of verse 26 reads ‘And in all these things ... there is a great chasm fixed...’, not ‘besides all these things ...’ (as in most translations), which is almost the opposite. The chasm lay in the differences between the two men. There was a spiritual chasm between them. Sometimes you speak to people who are strongly grounded in scripture, and have had every spiritual opportunity, and yet cannot receive any real spiritual truth or understanding. Nothing can pass from you to them, or them to you. There is a great chasm fixed between you.
There has been a chasm between the Jew and the Gentile for most of the last 2000 years. The church has bitterly persecuted the Jews, and the Jews have hated what they thought was the Christian faith. Almost nothing has passed across the chasm between them. Like the rich man, the Jews have spent much of that time in torment.
Whatever the nature of this chasm, the fact that it was fixed then, does not necessarily mean that it will always be fixed. If God can move mountains, he can also fill chasms.
Many Jews, both in the land of Israel and in the diaspora, are now returning to the true bosom of Abraham, and believing in their Messiah. Many members of the churches, in spite of thinking they are Abraham’s children, have a great chasm fixed between themselves and God.
Pre-Existence
The Bible contains strong evidence that we existed as spirits with God before we entered our human bodies. The book of Ecclesiastes makes a clear pronouncement: ‘the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it’ (Ecc 12: 7) The word return cannot mean anything other than to go back to where you have come from. If we existed as spirits with God before entering this world, then eternal torment and separation from God after leaving this world become an absurdity. How could a loving and wise God send spirits to this world with a high probability that they would never return to him, but instead spend eternity in indescribable pain and suffering?
I have discussed this topic in more detail in a separate writing entitled Pre-Existence.
The Church
Hasn’t the church always taught eternal judgement? Don’t nearly all Christians agree on it? The answer is no. There were early church fathers who believed in universal salvation. Of these Origen is probably the best known.
In the last 400 years Bible translations have nearly all followed the traditional view of eternal punishment. No doubt this has had a strong influence on popular belief. Even so there have been people who have disagreed.
Any way the church is not always right! The majority of people who call themselves Christians believe the Pope is head of the church, and everything that goes with that! At times in church history almost the whole hierarchy has been utterly corrupt both in doctrine and in life. It should never surprise us to find the majority in error. We must learn to seek God for ourselves, and, if necessary, follow him alone.
The church has had an interest in teaching eternal judgement. Unable to attract people by showing the love, joy, peace and forgiveness offered freely in Christ, the church has depended on threats of future torment to keep its grip on its members. Eternal judgement has been the party line. All verses that contradict it have been ignored or twisted to mean something different from their obvious meaning. We are so accustomed to the lie, that we find it difficult to accept the truth.
Future Punishment
The New Testament undoubtedly speaks of punishment for those who reject Jesus Christ. Jesus and the apostles taught this as a certainty. God cannot accept unrepentant sinners. He would not be just and holy if he could. We must now consider the nature of what awaits the unbeliever.
In Matthew 18: 8, 9 Jesus speaks of aionios fire and a Gehenna of fire. We find the same imagery in the lake of fire in the book of Revelation. Fire destroys, but it does not destroy everything. Paul told the Corinthians (1 Cor 3: 12-15) that it was possible to build with gold, silver and precious stones, or with wood, hay and straw. The fire would test each man’s work. Clearly wood, hay and straw will be destroyed; gold, silver and precious stones will not. The great contrast is between the flesh and the spirit. What is born of the flesh is flesh; what is born of the spirit is spirit. The flesh is cheap and temporary; the spirit is precious and permanent. In 5: 5 Paul goes on to speak of delivering someone to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. This accords with 1 Peter 4: 6: ‘...though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to God.’
Fire is a cleansing agent. It accompanied the law-giving on Sinai. Throughout the scriptures it is symbolic of the presence of God. Our God is a consuming fire (Heb 12: 29). It specially signifies the sanctifying Holy Spirit. Brimstone or sulphur that accompanies fire was also regarded as a purifying agent in ancient times. In Greek it is theion, the neuter singular of the adjective theios meaning divine. It is obviously related to God.
In Mat 25: 46 Jesus speaks of aionios punishment. There are two words for punishment in Greek. kolasiV (kolasis), the word used here, carries a definite sense of correction and comes from a root originally meaning to prune. We prune trees in the hope of getting more fruit - not in retributive fury!
In 2 Thes 1: 9 we read of aionios destruction. Paul uses the same word here as he uses in 1 Cor 5: 5 for the destruction of the flesh. Two verses earlier he refers to the Lord Jesus being revealed in flaming fire. When we compare scripture we can see that this verse is correctly translated ‘destruction (coming) from the presence of the Lord’, as in some translations, not ‘destruction away from the presence of the Lord’, as in others. The presence of Jesus is death to the flesh, but life to the spirit.
We must now revisit Revelation 14: 10, 11: ‘(they) will be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever ...’. Can anyone imagine Jesus supervising the ceaseless and unending torture of vast numbers of the human race? The most hardened inquisition tormenter could hardly do such a thing. However Jesus would happily supervise the purifying and purging of all who need it. This would be totally consistent with the character of the one who gave his own life in agony to save all.
Lastly we must review the phrase aionios judgement in Heb 6: 2. It is called an elementary, foundational teaching. The root meaning of judgement is separation. Again the flesh must be separated from the spirit. It is a process that we should experience in this life. We should judge ourselves, if we do not want to be judged, and we must put to death the deeds of the flesh that we may walk in the spirit. If we are not willing for judgement now, it must come later.
The picture that now emerges from our study is not a hell of unmitigated, unending torment. Rather it is a place of judgement for correction. We begin to see a loving Creator who is not going to be content with his creatures until they are ultimately purged and cleansed of every sin. He is taking infinite pains over their perfection. His purposes may be long in their outworking, but in the end they will be perfectly accomplished.
The Testimony of Sundar Singh
Here I believe it will be helpful to include the testimony of the Indian Sadhu Sundar Singh. In December 1904, Jesus appeared to Sundar when he was about to commit suicide, and he was dramatically converted. Subsequently he had many ecstatic experiences in which he conversed with angels and spirits. He gives the following account of what they told him about hell.
‘I was also told that the love of God operates even in Hell. God does not shine in His full light, because those there could not bear it, but He gradually shows them more and more light and by and by brings them on and moves their conscience towards something better, although they think that the desire is entirely their own. Thus God works on their minds from within, something in the same way, though in the opposite direction, as that in which Satan suggests temptation to us here. Thus, what with God's work within and the Light without, almost all those in Hell will ultimately be brought to Christ’s feet. It will perhaps take millions of ages, but when it is attained they will be full of joy and thankfulness towards God: though they will still be less happy than those who have accepted Christ on earth. Thus Hell also is a training school, a place of preparation for Home. Those in Hell know that it is not their home because they suffer there. Men were not created for Hell and therefore do not enjoy it and, when there, desire to escape to Heaven. They do so, but they find Heaven even more uncongenial than Hell, so they return. But this convinces them that there is something wrong in their lives, and thus they are gradually led to repentance. At least, that is the case with the majority, but there are some few personalities, Satan for instance, in regard to whom I was told, 'Don't ask about them.. And so I didn't like to ask, but I hoped that for them also there was some hope.
‘They also told me that the saints help in the work of saving souls in Hell, because there can be no idleness in Heaven. Those in Hell will ultimately be brought to Heaven, like the prodigal son, but with regard to the ultimate fate of a certain number you must not ask.’ The Sadhu is inclined to think that perhaps these few will be annihilated.
Once I said ‘So many people will be lost because they have not heard of Christ.’ They said, ‘The contrary will be the case; very few will be lost.’ There is a kind of heavenly joke - no joke is not a good word for it. Very few will be lost but many will be saved. It is so but don’t tell,’ they said, as it were in jest, ‘because it will make men careless, and we want them to enjoy the First Heaven - that is, the Heaven on earth - as well.’ ‘If there were no hope for all the non-Christians in the world and all the Christians who die in sin, God would stop creating men. We must do our part here on earth to save sinners, but if they refuse we need not be without hope for them.’
God’s Overall Plan
We must now stand back to see the wider implications of our argument. If the traditional view is correct, Adam and Eve of their free will were ensnared by Satan and sinned against God plunging their entire race into sin. Jesus suffered and gave his life for all mankind, but only won back a very small proportion of our race for God, leaving a large majority permanently in the hands of Satan to live and die and then suffer perpetual and indescribable torment. Many of us have reluctantly accepted this view because we could see no other in the scriptures.
Such a view in its implications leaves Satan almost equal with God. It has probably borrowed much from heathenism where gods of good and evil fought among themselves on roughly equal terms. Heathenism always gives evil an exalted position, and frequently encourages its followers to worship it. I get the impression that science fiction follows the same lines, though confess I have not studied the subject in depth!
Can we discover a scriptural view of the place of evil? Let us turn first to Romans 8: 20 and 21: ‘For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.’ In this passage God clearly takes responsibility for the fall of creation. He subjected the creation to futility in hope of its future deliverance. It was all part of his full creative plan. He did not lose the first round in a conflict with Satan. He positively planned that events should go that way.
Ultimately we must see that God takes responsibility for evil and uses it to bring about his purposes. In Isaiah chapter 45 God states his sovereignty. He states that he has raised up Cyrus, a heathen king, for his purposes. In verse 5 he says, ‘Besides Me there is no God.’ In verse 7 he adds, ‘the one forming light and creating darkness, causing peace and creating evil; I am the Lord who does all these things.’ Some English versions read calamity rather than evil. The Hebrew word can have either meaning. Good and evil are not two opposing forces, like white and black on the chessboard, striving for mastery of the universe. God created all things including evil to serve his own purposes, and he is in total control.
The prophet Habakkuk wrestled with this problem. Read chapter 1 verses 5 and 6: ‘Look among the nations! Observe! Be astonished! Wonder! Because I am doing something in your days - You would not believe if you were told. For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans, that fierce and impetuous people ...’ God raised up an evil people to work out his purposes of judgement and correction for Israel. Habakkuk, like us, found it difficult to understand. In Romans 9: 17, Paul quotes Exodus 9: 16 to state emphatically that God raised up Pharaoh. Pharaoh is like Satan, holding the people of God in cruel bondage and captivity until the deliverer comes to set them free. Paul goes on to state the absolute sovereignty of God.
When we start to see Satan and evil and wicked nations as tools in the hand of God for working out his purposes, everything begins to make sense. God plunged the whole creation down into sin that He might bring it up again having known evil and chosen good.
Job in his innocent integrity was certainly pleasing in the eyes of God. God’s work however was not complete. How much greater was Job’s appreciation, love and understanding of God after he had suffered. Like the whole creation, he had to go down before he could rise to a greater height. In Jesus himself above all we see the same pattern. He came down by steps from the greatest height to the lowest depths, before God raised Him again to the highest glory at His right hand.
Conclusion
If these things are true, what effect will they have on our attitudes to God and to man? Do we encourage sinners to continue in their evil ways by taking away the threat of eternal damnation? No! It remains ‘a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God’ (Heb 10: 31). It is infinitely better to walk this life in fellowship with Jesus Christ and union with God than to live our days here in darkness and sin. Paul was constrained to be an ‘ambassador for Christ’ not by the fear of hell, but by fear of the Lord and by the love of Christ (2 Cor 5: 11, 14, 20). We no longer see the human race as hell-bound sinners most of whom will eventually be permanently written off. We see each one as a creation of God for whom He has a purpose that will be accomplished. Our love for man will increase.
How then do we see God in this new light? Firstly we see his power enormously enhanced. We see him exalted far above all and in total dominion over his creation. Secondly we see his wisdom in fresh glory. His plan is far wiser and deeper than we had previously seen. Thirdly we have a new vision of his love. He really does love each one of the billions of members of this human race with a love that will eventually bring all to perfection. ‘Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and unfathomable His ways! ....For from him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory for the ages. Amen’ (Rom 11: 33, 36).
Postscript
Jonah reluctantly went to Nineveh and told the people of that city that they had 40 days to repent before their city would be overthrown. Surprisingly - at least to us - the whole city believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth. What was Jonah’s reaction to this? Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. God then said to Jonah: 'Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?'
If you have long believed in the eternal damnation of sinners and warned them of endless torment, and now begin to see that things are not as you had thought, will you react like Jonah with resentment at God’s mercy and love, or will you rejoice that his grace and loving kindness go far beyond what you had previously imagined?
Further reading: I strongly recommend The Restitution of All Things by Andrew Jukes, obtainable from The Concordant Bible Society, 189 Northumberland Avenue, Hornchurch Essex, RM11 2HW, England or Concordant Publishing Concern, 15570 Knochaven Road, Santa Clarita,CA 91350 Phone: 661-252-2112 in the USA. Andrew Jukes was a profound scholar of the 19th century. This book treats the subject in depth, and is full of interesting thoughts.
The following web sites have a lot of good study on this and other subjects:
Tentmaker website
Arthur Eedle's website
Cross references:
The Aeonian Realm
Pre-Existence
Home Page
writetoknow
JoinedPosts by writetoknow
-
4
UNIVERSAL RECONCILATION
by writetoknow inonce a person is forced to think that perhaps they don't have all the answers it is a refreshings experience to realize that mankinds salvation maybe a lot greater then we are willing to see.
the information below is not mine and i don't agree with all of it however i must say it has caused me to rethink some of my narrow views once held as a witness i hope it does the same for you.
universal reconciliation .
-
-
writetoknow
-
12
Can't have it both ways
by loosie ini just thought about something today.
the jw's logic or lack there of.. when you are in the "truth" and bad things happen.. satan is persucuting you.
and when good thing happen to you it's jah's blessing.. when you are out of the "truth" or free as i like to call it.
-
-
writetoknow
Acutally the this thought predates Christainity and is held by many groups non-christian. But to put it into focus here is the the thought:
"Be not mislead, my dear brothers, Every beneficent gift and every perfect present is from above; it descends from the Father of Light, with whom no variation occurs not shadow cast by turning."
James 1:16
The question one should ask in the Christain text "new testiment" does it focus on material or spiritual blessings. The "old testiment" seem to focus more on material physical blessings. Was James here talking about the blessings God gives from His Holy Spirit or material gain - things on earth?
It seems most groups today focus on God blessings them materially - if that does not happen God is not blessing them.
Early Christian writing seems to focus on passing the trail and gaining spiritual blessings from going through the trials. Early Christian did not see this life as the blessings, but the next one. So there is much confusion over this subject, However, I have meant many people not Christian that believe their being blessed or cursed.
-
9
Are JW's former Chiliasts?
by NYCkid inhey, i was reading karl marx today for one of my college classes and he mentions briefly the chiliasts and i quote, "in their minds [french revolutionists] may 2, 1852, had become a fixed idea, a dogma, like the day on which christ should reappear and the millennium begin, in the minds of the chiliasts.
" the footnote goes on to say about the chiliasts, "the adherents of an ancient christian sect, who believed in the second coming of christ and in the establishment of the millennium, a thousand years of pardise on earth.
obviously this mention of the millennium believing chiliasts struck my curiosity since that is exactly what jws believe especially when chiliasts believed that satan would be let loose at the end of the 1000 years for one final battle.
-
-
writetoknow
Nothing new under the sun! Unless of course you rewrite history and claim it as your own.
-
-
-
writetoknow
There are far more then animal offerings.
Grain offerings
Drink offerings
Wave offering
And those offended by blood offering there is still hope when you go to McD's you can order a Big Mac with cheese and fruit salad that way you get blood offering, grain offering, wave offering and dairy to the god of the belly.
From the first fruits of your paycheck
-
32
Should We Really Try to Change Others?
by journey-on inwhy do atheists try to change believers?
why do believers try to convert atheists?
why do we feel compelled to evangelize, proselyltize, convert, and change others politically, religiously, culturally, etc.?
-
-
writetoknow
When a person stands for a conviction it can be inspiring. When a person forces their conviction upon other it is demoralizing.
Still all in all lessons are learned by both. Perhaps life is about becoming real for some and for others making us real?
-
26
abomination of desolation
by tula in.
so what does this mean to you?.
and how would you apply this to the future as a revelation?.
-
-
writetoknow
And that is the point! There were to be no "spiritual leader" if you read your bible that spiritual leader is Christ Jesus and it is God Holy Spirit that writes God Law of love in His children heart.
So the proof is in the pudding as they say. Even a fool can see that speculation of dates has never worked if one can come off their self-edification long enough to check out the history of dates and the many claim to understandings of Revelation's.
Thus, the scriptures are a dichotomy and as for those that state it takes scriptures to explain scriptures the scriptures themselves state it requires God Spirit to explain scriptures. However, the majority of human race want to explain the scriptures without God's Spirit!
Strange dichotomy indeed! It is reminiscent of the haughty Jews that could not understand Christ teachings because his teaching were spirit filled. Subsequently, the scriptures angred those Jews when taught by Chirst and later his disciples upon receving the Holy Spirit.
However, those that loved God had no problem with Christ and his spirit lead teachings. People that want and demand absolutes from the scriptures will never understand them demand as they will. But they will continue in their distrust, hate and sin demanding perfection when perfection does not exist through the scriptures nor can they understand that statement.
So another dichotomy confronts those that want to explain the scriptures; who was the bible written for? And who must a person accept in order to receive the free gift of the Holy Spirit? The Jews claimed ownership of the Holy writings and yet killed the one they spoke about!
If the scriptures produce hate, discontent and distrust in the heart of the person reading them, then what value are they? Moreover, if they produce the opposite of their stated intent what is missing in you? And if somethings is missing in you how would you know the truth? And why do you seek truth when you can't accept the truth?
-
32
Should We Really Try to Change Others?
by journey-on inwhy do atheists try to change believers?
why do believers try to convert atheists?
why do we feel compelled to evangelize, proselyltize, convert, and change others politically, religiously, culturally, etc.?
-
-
writetoknow
Correcting child or making a child do something is not the same as making an adult change. The world of full of people that are happy to change adults not children. What they find out is something like this; a policeman sit along side the road waiting of speeders everyone can see his car so they all do what?
Once he is out of sight the all go back to speeding. Nothing changes in reality, but for that brief moment out of fear. Fear changes people for a moment. So how does one assume the right over another person will and call that change unless it really for self?
Every person that a part of a group has to comform to the group willingly or unwillingly to be a part of that group. But if the group no longer exist for the person will they have made lasting change or will they keep that change?
Families have the same problems force parent make the child obey the rules once the child is on their own, that is, an adult and have their own family they most often do things differently then their parents.
However, when a person make a change of their own will because it benefits them it becomes part of them - big differents. People that can't be happy unless they are changing the world are never happy they spend a life time forcing other to have their point of view and if they weren't so self-center they realize they are nothing more then a policman in plain sight!
-
32
Should We Really Try to Change Others?
by journey-on inwhy do atheists try to change believers?
why do believers try to convert atheists?
why do we feel compelled to evangelize, proselyltize, convert, and change others politically, religiously, culturally, etc.?
-
-
writetoknow
We preach what we need people that try to change others are really wanting to change themselves, but they are not mature enough to realize it. They are fooled by what they account as imperfection in others, blinding them to their own need for change.
The so called imperfection must be changed to keep their personal insecurity from showing. Morover, if they had no one to preach at or try to change they would not have anything to believe in. People that are secure in their position don't preach the engage a discussion. Much like a child putting their hands over their ears not to hear is the person trying to change someone.
-
26
abomination of desolation
by tula in.
so what does this mean to you?.
and how would you apply this to the future as a revelation?.
-
-
writetoknow
One must ask a serious question; Where is the Holies of Holies today?
"But when Christ arrived as High Priest of promised blessings, He passed through the greater and more perfect tent, not made with hands; no part . that is, of material creation. Heb 9:11
Where do Gods people worship today?
"I perceive, sir, that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you say that Jerusalem is the proper place to worship".
Jesus told her, Believe me, woman that hour has come when you shall worship the Father neither merely in this mountain nor merely in Jerusalem.
But the hour comes - and is now - when genuine worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is looking for such as His worshpers,
"The Spirit is the life-giver; the flesh does not benefit at all. the messages I bring you are spirit and life."
"It is written in the Prophets, And they shall all be taught of God."
"Once more He told them, I go away and you will look for me, but you will die in your sin; the place to which I go you are not able to come."
"Do you not know that you are God's temple and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone ruins the temple of God, God will ruin him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you."
"Through the Spirit, however, God has revealed it to us; for the Spirit examines everything, even the deep things of God."
"So when I came to you, Brothers, I came with no distinction of eloquence or of wisdom, when I announced to you God's testimony; for I wanted to know nothing in you midst except Jesus Christ and HIm crucified."
"On the Lord's day I became Spirit-possessed and heard behind me a voices as mighty as a trumpet, that said, Write what you see in a book and dispatch it to the seven churches."
When a person starts from a lesser premise, that of, physcial to explan the spiritual reality it must be wrong.
The Holy Spirit, too affirms it to us, for after the saying, This is the covenant I will conclude with them after those days," the Lord says , I will place My laws upon their hearts and inscribe them on their minds."
"Instead, we have come up to Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem."
Men seeking the deep things of God without His Holy spirit are puffed up with pride they remain in their sin and expect the scriptures to explain what only the Holy Spirit can teach.
The Spirit and the bride say, come!"
"To which Jesus replied, If I ascrbed glory to Myself, My glory would be worthless."
"You investigate the Scriptures, because you suppose that you have eternal life in them, and yet they are the testimonies for me."
I am the Bread of Life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert and died this is the Bread thatcomes down from heaven, so that anyone who eats of it may not die. I am the Living Bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever."
-
14
The Bible VS. The Word of God
by writetoknow inmany elevate the scriptures (new world translation, etc.
) and the accurate knowledge of as greater then the word of god.
subsequently, putting their faith in the men that interpret the bible for them.
-
-
writetoknow
When every it becomes control or hurting of people it's not of the Holy Spirit. Standing up for what it right and then letting God handle it is the actions of a true Christain.
It is a simple thing to test if a person has God's Holy Spirit because Christ showed in action what it means to have God's Holy Spirit. If a person adds or to his action they will be decieved. Christ never built a org on earth. In order to do that one must use God's word as law to form the group to do the well of the people in charge that has nothing to do with Christ.
Christ or God cannot accpect worship by force it must be out of love for them. It is concept mature people understand in their own relationship anything less is disfuctional.