Posts by BEROEAN

30

What if she hadn't eaten the fruit?

by michael downing in

based solely on whats available in the genesis account, what would happen if eve had not eaten the fruit but had continued a relationship with the "serpent" in perpetuity questioning god's motives?

would she be punished for this exercise of free will?.

i ask the question because my personal belief is that if the genesis account is in fact allegory, then what comes after it should be awarded no more acknowledged efficacy that what we prescribe to aesop, confucius or any other pragmatic, non-theistic value-set that has survived history .

BEROEAN

Ouch Eclipse!

My comments and questions were not intended to offend. I apologize for that. The Books of Enoch are descriptive narratives. Yet, they promote the belief of immortality of the soul, hellfire, and eternal torment. Those beliefs are immediately eliminated from my primary beliefs. We live around death everyday. As of yet, none of my ancestors or friends that died have contacted any of my surviving relatives or myself to laud or warn of the "afterlife". My studies of the Bible teach me that Jehovah hasn't kept Adam, Eve, Cain, Nimrod, Judas, ect. in some prison torturing them for lo these many centuries. The Bible clearly teaches that when a person dies they decompose, and no longer exist. The only hope of a person living again is by being resurrected or "anastasis" (lit. - to stand/raise up). Afterall, if there is a "better place" for those who believe so, why aren't they rushing to get there? Why go to a doctor, worry about your diet, exercise, wear safety equipment, ect.? In general, mankind fears dying. If those who believe in an "afterlife" were told they were going to die tomorrow, how many would jump for joy?

From my vantage point, the "rightness" of Jehovah punishing those who disobey His commands is questioned by many. Which begs the question, "What gives any authority the "right" to enforce laws and punish those who chose to disobey them?". Is total anarchy the answer?

I'm not judgmental. Cantankerous perhaps. But, judgmental? Naw!

======================================================================================================

Borean,

I have read the account of the nephelim, and of when the angels came down to earth. It's quite interesting. And no, it does not dispute that they did come down, it simply goes into greater details - like the names of the fallen angels, (and how they felt afterwards, and the names of the arch angels sent to deliver God's punishment). How the nephilim were, and what happened to their ''angelic halves'', if you will, after they died. Very interesting account.

Come back after you have read it...

http://reluctant-messenger.com/2enoch01-68.htm#Chapter01

As for your other condescending question which borders on the line of insulting, I respectfully reply,

what is it to you? Why do you care what I think?

If you think my view points are so appalling, then don't read them.

I know humans can be vile and murderous and pure evil. I would NEVER think highly of them.

I merely stated that from what I've read, that the fallen angel Satan has been the skapegoat. GOD has murdered unjustly, without any good reason too! GOD of the NT is JUST as EVIL in my eyes. So why is Satan the only one villified??, is my point.

You are so judgemental, Borean. It's kind of disgusting, but understandable since you are a JW elder, so you really can't help being that way, can you....

Too bad that there ONLY a few GOOD elders out there who are intelligent, humble and not judgemental, condescending assholes.

30

What if she hadn't eaten the fruit?

by michael downing in

based solely on whats available in the genesis account, what would happen if eve had not eaten the fruit but had continued a relationship with the "serpent" in perpetuity questioning god's motives?

would she be punished for this exercise of free will?.

i ask the question because my personal belief is that if the genesis account is in fact allegory, then what comes after it should be awarded no more acknowledged efficacy that what we prescribe to aesop, confucius or any other pragmatic, non-theistic value-set that has survived history .

BEROEAN

Humans do not die because a human ancestor ate a piece of fruit. If this were true, what of the animals who lived in Eden, and did NOT eat the fruit? Why do animals not live forever? Humans die for the same reason every other multicellular being dies. Cell replacement is imperfect, and eventually, sufficent mistakes accumulate that the body doesn't function any longer. It is rare for a human to live to 100, and there is no evidence at all that any human has ever lived to even, say 200 years, let alone 900+ "because they were closer to perfection".

"Eating a piece of fruit" is the simple action. What kind of fruit was it? What was the chemical makeup? Was it injected with a virus that would trigger a sequence of events in Adam and Eve's DNA that would permanently alter them? How is Kidney disease, High Blood Pressure, Cancer, and other diseases passed on from one generation to the next? The animals wouldn't have had access to the tree of life. They were created for man's enjoyment. Man was created with intelligence, the ability to love, and the ability to worship a creator. Animals have instincts. Science has not figured out why our cells will continue to regenerate, but at a certain point that process stops (Between 30 and 40 years old). The climate of the earth went through a drastic change after the flood. Before the flood there was an expanse / water canopy over the earth. This would have blocked out the harmful UV rays of the sun. mankind lived strictly on vegetation, because there was no need for meat in his diet. After the flood, man was introduced into drastic climate and temperature changes. noah was given the command to eat meat. Gen. 9:3,4. Under those former conditions mankind would have a longer lifespan.

30

What if she hadn't eaten the fruit?

by michael downing in

based solely on whats available in the genesis account, what would happen if eve had not eaten the fruit but had continued a relationship with the "serpent" in perpetuity questioning god's motives?

would she be punished for this exercise of free will?.

i ask the question because my personal belief is that if the genesis account is in fact allegory, then what comes after it should be awarded no more acknowledged efficacy that what we prescribe to aesop, confucius or any other pragmatic, non-theistic value-set that has survived history .

BEROEAN

I've read your arguments on other threads and you do alot of rationalization. I think you are well intentioned and are trying to post here to show that witnesses can still be faithful without being a drone. Thanks for acknowledging this. Although some want to label me a troll because I don't "go with the flow", I love civilized debates.

While alot of your arguments do try to present a balanced view of the matter, you do alot of justification and rationalization.

Genesis 1:5 And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day.

At this point, God had set a distinction of a Day as humans understood it. The time when it is light is Day. Then he told Eve:

NWT Genesis 2:17 "But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

Now since Eve didn't die right away, that must mean that we misunderstood God, right?

Well if you subscribe to the witness's translation, without rationalization, God is a liar. Not necessarily. Even today, a word can have more than one meaning. Webster's New World Dictionary 3rd Edition gives this as one of the nie definitions for Day: 4 - a period of time; era; age (the best writer of her day) 8 - an unspecified past or future time 9 - one's lifetime; life (to spend one's day in study).

Here's a more standard translation:

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Note that it removes the time restriction on the death, this translation actually supports your argument, but your beliefs say that other translations are wrong. So, in your heart, do you think that God is a liar, the WTS didn't translate it properly, or God intended Eve to cross-reference his commandment with scripture that hadn't been written yet.

Without rationalizations the account shows God and Satan equally deceptive, neither lying, neither telling the truth.

You realize how easily I could mount up a rationalization and God is actually evil based on this account? But rationalizations don't convince anyone other than the one that creates them. Sure, we can rationalize almost anything (Sorry, but I can't rationalize canned Spam). But, rationalization is like playing the six degrees of Kevin Bacon. For me, the fact remains; Jehovah created all thing and Satan is a rebellious little brat. Which is a story played out in everyone's life. Parent and child, Teacher and student, Boss and employee, Law of the land and its citizens. In each case there's rule makers and punishment for rule breakers. What i find odd is that most people who reject God's Law will, withour reservation, abide by the laws of the country they live in. A country who's laws, more than likely, are based on religion.

1. Bela Lugosi was in Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein (1948) with Vincent Price

2. Vincent Price was in The Raven (1963) with Jack Nicholson

3. Jack Nicholson was in A Few Good Men (1992) with Kevin Bacon

I'm still curious as to your intentions here. Usually denial is the fist step to recovery. I'm not sure if you're on these forums because you are an actual misguided faithful witness, or if you are here in an effort to try to rationalize the injustices you are seeing in the organization claiming to represent the God you know in your heart.

Neither, I always keep testing and proving if what I believe is justified. This takes me to a variety of sources to investigate my beliefs. Remember, i'm not a drone. Either way, I can say that I doubt either of us possesses the mental aptitude to dissuade the other to our unique points of view. So we can either verbally spar for fun or agree to disagree. Fun is good. And, yes, my jib is not cut from "intellectual" cloth either. I'm too goofy to take myself seriously. Unlike some of the Noble-minded blowhards that lurk on this site.

Your call. I'll toss this little mental tidbit out there: After eating from the tree Eve's eyes were "opened" and she could tell the difference between good and evil.

If she could then tell the difference between good and evil, why didn't she think eating from the tree was an evil act if she offered it to Adam? If it didn't affect her either way, why would she even seek out Adam to get him to try? I would guess for the same reason Satan wasn't content with being a lone rebel. For the same reason most opposers of the "establishment" try to gain as many supporters as possible. Perhaps, they feel if they get enough people on their side they'll have a fighting chance? I'm curious; do you believe in Evolution or Creation and what is the basis / foundation of your beliefs?

30

What if she hadn't eaten the fruit?

by michael downing in

based solely on whats available in the genesis account, what would happen if eve had not eaten the fruit but had continued a relationship with the "serpent" in perpetuity questioning god's motives?

would she be punished for this exercise of free will?.

i ask the question because my personal belief is that if the genesis account is in fact allegory, then what comes after it should be awarded no more acknowledged efficacy that what we prescribe to aesop, confucius or any other pragmatic, non-theistic value-set that has survived history .

BEROEAN

The children of Job were the only ones recorded being murdered by Satan. The god of the OT killed tens of thousands of humans. It seems easy to pin the term evil on a character who is called evil, but if god does the same thing, it's ok. I don't think Satan was a nice guy, but I think his reputation of evil far exceeding the things he actually was recorded of doing. Satan, to me, is a bitter child rebelling against his father. I wonder if the angel called Satan was sincerely sorry, asked for forgiveness, if it would be granted to him.

The Bible is not an account of every event that happened. But let's take Noah's day. Satan along with his rebellious demonic cohorts gaze down at the women of the earth and decide to materialize in human form and have sex with them. They produce this hybrid offspring called Nephelim and these half human half spirit beings terrorize mankind. In fact, the Bible calls them "Fellers" because they made men fall down before them. Some of the Greek mythology isn't that far off from depicting these superhuman giants. How many individuals died at the hands of these demons? Was Satan the leader of this demonic horde? Remember, the world had become "filled with violence" to the point that Jehovah felt "regret in his heart that He had created man.". How bad were the conditions of the world in Noah's day that even Jehovah felt regret over His creation? Imagine being a parent and having children so depraved that you wished they were never born! Unbelievable!

The mere fact that you feel Satan's reputation of evil far exceeds what he's actually done is appalling. Do you feel guys like Al Capone, John Gotti, and Pablo Escobar were "good guys" too? Afterall, although they were the kingpins of crime syndicates, they personally were known to be very nice guys.

If Satan were sorry, he would have been forgiven, but Satan has continued down that slippery slope to destruction. The further he falls the more enraged he becomes. Look at how angry he got when Jehovah no longer allowed him to freely raom around Heaven.

I think the Rolling Stones painted a clear picture of Satan:

Sympathy For The Devil
(M. Jagger/K. Richards)

Yo!..... Yo!...... Yo!

Woo Good!....

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith

And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

I stuck around at St. Petersburg
When I saw it was a-time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain

I rode a tank
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, ah yeah

(whoo whoo, whoo whoo)
I watched with glee
While your kings and queens (whoo whoo)
Fought for ten decades (whoo whoo)
For the gods they made (whoo whoo)

I shouted out, (whoo whoo)
"Who killed the Kennedys?" (whoo whoo)
When after all (whoo whoo)
It was you and me (whoo whoo)

Let me please introduce myself (whoo whoo)
I'm a man of wealth and taste (whoo whoo)
And I laid traps for troubadours (whoo whoo)
Who get killed before they reached Bombay (whoo whoo, whoo whoo)

Pleased to meet you (whoo whoo)
Hope you guessed my name, (whoo whoo) oh yeah (whoo whoo)
But what's puzzling you (whoo whoo)
Is the nature of my game(whoo whoo), oh yeah, get down, baby (whoo whoo)
(whoo whoo, whoo whoo)
(whoo whoo)
(whoo whoo)
(whoo whoo) ..........

Pleased to meet you (whoo whoo)
Hope you guessed my name, (whoo whoo) oh yeah (whoo whoo)
But what's confusing you (whoo whoo)
Is just the nature of my game (whoo whoo) um yeah (whoo whoo)

Just as every cop is a criminal (whoo whoo)
And all the sinners saints (whoo whoo)
As heads is tails (whoo whoo)
Just call me Lucifer (whoo whoo)
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint (whoo whoo)

So if you meet me (whoo whoo)
Have some courtesy (whoo whoo)
Have some sympathy, (whoo whoo) and some taste (whoo whoo)
Use all your well-learned politesse (whoo whoo)
Or I'll lay your(whoo whoo) soul to waste,(whoo whoo), um yeah (whoo whoo)

Pleased to meet you (whoo whoo)
Hope you guessed my name, (whoo whoo) um yeah (whoo, whoo)
But what's puzzling you (whoo whoo)
Is the nature of my game, (whoo whoo) um mean it, (whoo whoo) get down
(whoo whoo) (whoo whoo)
(whoo whoo)(whoo whoo)

Woo, who (whoo whoo)
Oh yeah, get on down (whoo whoo)
Oh yeah (whoo whoo)
(whoo whoo, whoo whoo)
(whoo whoo, whoo whoo)........

Oh yeah! (whoo, whoo)
Tell me baby,(whoo whoo) what's my name(whoo whoo)
Tell me honey,(whoo whoo) can ya guess my name (whoo whoo)
Tell me baby, (whoo whoo) what's my name (whoo whoo)
I tell you one time, (whoo whoo) you're to blame (whoo whoo)

Woo Who (whoo whoo)
Woo Who (whoo whoo)
Woo (whoo whoo) alright (whoo whoo)

Oh, who who, oh, who who, (whoo whoo) oh, who who
Oh Yeah (whoo whoo)
Woo, who who (whoo whoo) Woo, who who (whoo whoo)
Ah yeah, a-what's my name (whoo whoo)

Tell me, baby, (whoo whoo) what's my name (whoo whoo)
Tell me, sweetie, (whoo whoo) what's my name (whoo whoo)

Woo, who, who (whoo whoo)
Woo, who, who (whoo whoo)
Woo, who, who (whoo whoo)
Woo, who, who (whoo whoo)
Oh, who, who (whoo whoo)
Woo, who, who (whoo whoo)
Ah, yeah!
Whoo whoo
Woo Who Who
Whoo whoo

33

Just reviewing my years of non-appointment as an elder.

by AK - Jeff in

i had 'reached out' to be an elder for a decade before i finally understood the reasons why i was not, nor would i ever be one.. each visit of the co, my name was on the list of discussion.

i know this because i was told by both co's and local elders.

the vote was always close, sometimes i missed the cut due to 'low hours' on the part of my wife or daughter, othertimes due to some variation in the way the wts was looking at particular 'requirements'.

BEROEAN

Actually, becoming an Elder and getting the key to the congregation files is great motivation. Access to judicial cases that aren't hermetically sealed, letters from the branch, CO conversations behind "closed doors" ! Sure, those of you that haven't been appointed can assume what goes on, but I need to have an eyewitness account. Our files are so unkept, we have records from the 70s! I love getting some Starbucks and going to the Hall to do "research"! Sometimes I take files home. Copiers, scanners, and flash cards are great ways to save "interesting" documents. I hope our next CO has a laptop with an unsecured wireless connection!

30

What if she hadn't eaten the fruit?

by michael downing in

based solely on whats available in the genesis account, what would happen if eve had not eaten the fruit but had continued a relationship with the "serpent" in perpetuity questioning god's motives?

would she be punished for this exercise of free will?.

i ask the question because my personal belief is that if the genesis account is in fact allegory, then what comes after it should be awarded no more acknowledged efficacy that what we prescribe to aesop, confucius or any other pragmatic, non-theistic value-set that has survived history .

BEROEAN

I find it interesting that after they ate from the tree God said:

"The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil"

Isn't this exactly what Satan had said would happen?

This is something that has always intrigued me and i've speculated about. My thought is the "fruit" actually contained something that caused a mental change over Adam and Eve. Like many other foods today that can have emotional, physical, or mental effects on a person. That would explain the question Jehovah asks them when they were hiding from him, "Who told you you were naked? From the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, did you eat?"(Gen. 3:8-13). Which would also show that Jehovah didn't "foreordain" their downfall.

The thought of them knwing Good and Evil meant that they would now decide for themselves what was right and wrong; independence from God, oppposed to dependence and instruction from Jehovah. Thus, "sin" (the selfish tendencies and emotions that dominates thinking today) crept into the world.

Shortly thereafter, we see a rapid decline in moral values. Murder, Idolatry, Ruthless killing, theft, ect. The depraved world had declined to the point that Jehovah spared Enoch from a horrible death by the hand of his enemies and euthanized him.

Eve was under the assumption that eating the fruit would kill her instantly. So both God and Satan were correct.

Satan said that you couldn't die by eating the fruit. That was true, the fruit wasn't poisonous.

God said that by eating the fruit they would die. It was the act of disobedience that led to their eventual death.

Pure semantics. This is similar to a parent telling a teen, "If you keep smoking, you're going to die." The child isn't going to keel over the moment his lips touch a cigarette. No, but the effects of lung cancer due to smoking would be the "effect". Thus, Adam and Eve were cut-off from the life-sustaining fruitage found in the Garden of Eden and they eventually died. Remember also, time, days, and speed to Jehovah is something we can't comprehend. The Bible says, "A day with Jehovah is as a thousand years." (2Pet.3:8)

Satan is called the father of the lie, but off the top of my head, I can't think of any place in the bible where he actually lies.

The first lie Satan told was emphatically stating, "You POSITIVELY will not die.". Are they still alive today? Did Satan lie about Job (Job1:11)?

And as for why did Satan stop tempting Jesus? Because Jesus asked him to leave at Matthew 4:10. Keep in mind that Jesus was at this time surrounded by angels waiting to see the outcome of this temptation as is pointed out in verse 11. You could either say that Satan respected Jesus' request or he didn't want to get pounded on by a legion of angels.

You could also say that Satan needed to regroup if he was going to prove true his claim that any human (even a perfect one like Jesus) would turn against Jehovah if the price was right. It does say at Luke 4:13 that Satan left until "another convenient time.". Satan didn't fear getting pounded. They knew their destruction was centuries into the future. Look at the evil committed by Satan and his demons since his rebellion in Eden: Raped and impregnated women in Noah's day, left their hybrid children and wives to die in the flood, Murdered Jobs children, servants, and physically abused him, and demonic possession of weaker humans to name a few. Other than that, you'd have us believe he's really a nice guy?

30

What if she hadn't eaten the fruit?

by michael downing in

based solely on whats available in the genesis account, what would happen if eve had not eaten the fruit but had continued a relationship with the "serpent" in perpetuity questioning god's motives?

would she be punished for this exercise of free will?.

i ask the question because my personal belief is that if the genesis account is in fact allegory, then what comes after it should be awarded no more acknowledged efficacy that what we prescribe to aesop, confucius or any other pragmatic, non-theistic value-set that has survived history .

BEROEAN

You must remember the Genesis account, as well as other accounts in the Bible, give the essentials. They do not contain every bit of information to give a precise description of what occurred.

Jehovah has given all of His intelligent creation (mankind and spirit beings) free will. Choice. Jehovah created a spirit creature that later turned rebellious (Satan). Jehovah did not create "evil" per se. However, by definition, evil can also mean "ruinous, calamitious, ect.". That is why Jehovah told Noah He would never call down "evil" upon the ground on account of mankind again (Gen. 8:21).

Perhaps, before Adam and Eve were created, the selfish desires of Satan had already taken root (Ezekiel 28:11-18). Satan's slanderous lies and murderous spirit when speaking with Eve would have been the outward manifestation of this. Adam and Eve were full aware of the consequences for disobeying Jehovah.

What if Eve continued on in a conversation with Satan? That hardly would have occurred because Satan had an objective. Most likely he would have moved on to one of her children. Afterall, why did Satan leave Jesus after merely three temptations? Frustrated? Tired? He wanted to watch The Sopranos?

Satan knows who he'll make headway with and who he's wasting his time with. Afterall, he's studied us for thousands of years.

141

Are ex-JW still gullible or serpent-like?

by BEROEAN in

just wondering if ex-jws find it hard to trust others since their bad experience or are they still gullble souls?

just wondering because some of the stories i read about past experiences are off the charts!

some of you, your childhoods, your parents are seriously jacked up!

BEROEAN

Restrangled,

All I can say is "Wow!". Your chubby hubby goes running to you because he picked a fight and couldn't take the "counter-punches"??!!!

Tell your little man next time, "Don't start nothin, won't be nothin!".

Who are you, is not even close to being overweight, infact, is quite in shape as a man. (I should know, I am married to him)

141

Are ex-JW still gullible or serpent-like?

by BEROEAN in

just wondering if ex-jws find it hard to trust others since their bad experience or are they still gullble souls?

just wondering because some of the stories i read about past experiences are off the charts!

some of you, your childhoods, your parents are seriously jacked up!

BEROEAN

DaveGod,

Where are you? Are you buying up as much NOVHR as you can?

Hmmmm, let's see.....in at 13 and now it's up to over 18?!!!!!

Looks like were having French for dinner!

30 options for 39K and sell at 18!!!! Did you guys think I was kidding when I gave you that tip?

Maybe next time.

141

Are ex-JW still gullible or serpent-like?

by BEROEAN in

just wondering if ex-jws find it hard to trust others since their bad experience or are they still gullble souls?

just wondering because some of the stories i read about past experiences are off the charts!

some of you, your childhoods, your parents are seriously jacked up!

BEROEAN

That a boy,

Perhaps you choose to ignore the several answers i've already given to questions such as these. OR, perhaps you passed over the actual cases I was involved in and stated how I and the other Elders handled them. OR, perhaps you don't really care about these victims as you claim, but instead, you live for attacking anyone that doesn't worship you! Viewing your post history, you seem to have a penchant for conflict.

If you look back at your initial posts on this topic it was you that started hurling insults with "wannabe, Steve Erkel, blowhard, and the laughable 'I chew guys like you up and spit them out for breakfast". I tried keeping things civil, but your ghetto mentality is so boorish.

Perhaps an anger management session may help? I would suggest taking your fatass to a gym, waddle over to the treadmill, fantasize about Krispy Kreme, and "walk it out" Bro!

When it mentions not to be concerned with the offenders authority, but the purity of the congregation. It means even if it's the PO, he gets dealt. Being in subjection to the superior authorities also comes into play, because if the offender broke the law, (as in the case of pedophilia, physical, and even financial abuse), the proper authorities are contacted. The purity of the congregation includes the victim.