Pubsinger,
It is the Dec 15, 2001 Watchtower under the 'questions for readers'. i would have to do some searching to get you some of the other changes i have seen. i've read many. there are many in rays franz book also 'crisis of conscience.
i didnt mean to but it just came out and before i knew it i was crying and arguing with her.
well not really arguing but getting excited.
she got mad and said 'so what are you saying that you dont think this is the truth?
Pubsinger,
It is the Dec 15, 2001 Watchtower under the 'questions for readers'. i would have to do some searching to get you some of the other changes i have seen. i've read many. there are many in rays franz book also 'crisis of conscience.
i didnt mean to but it just came out and before i knew it i was crying and arguing with her.
well not really arguing but getting excited.
she got mad and said 'so what are you saying that you dont think this is the truth?
well tonight when i got home my mom said she listened to the watchtower article 2 or 3 times and she said that actually it isnt anything new about it really (the one on celebrating xmas). she said its always been a matter of conscience for people with unbelieving mates because they have to be in subjection. i dont know i couldnt really dispute it with her. i'm beginning to wonder if i am wrong and maybe the devil has been trying to lead people away by means of ray franz and boards like this. i dont know it doesnt seem like he would be making up the stuff in his book but with the devil i guess anythings possible. i dont think so though
flower
i didnt mean to but it just came out and before i knew it i was crying and arguing with her.
well not really arguing but getting excited.
she got mad and said 'so what are you saying that you dont think this is the truth?
thanks for the warning, i will be more careful for sure. maybe i will not make such firm statements like 'i dont think its the truth' or things like that. i should have started slower and just left it with the magazine changes and let her sit on that.
oh well, i dont think she will say anything to my dad but she was out with my sister today so i dont know if she would talk to her. i'm not going to say anything else unless she asks me about it.
flower
at first glance, most people would say that there are lots of very good jws around.
ok, we reason, maybe they are a little misguided, but most of them mean well.
we particularly like to think that way about our friends and loved ones who are in the organisation, we dont want to regard them as being unkind and uncaring.
englishman,
i havent had time to read all these responses so i dont know if mine has already been mentioned. i dont think you are correct in lumping all witnesses together as you are. there are good jw's and for the most part i think of them as victims just like us. yes they are cold hearted and believe whole heartedly that we and the whole world are evil and will be destroyed but you seem to be forgetting that they believe this because they are told they have to. they believe jehovah demands that they think this. they are brainwashed and dont know how to think for themselves. they cant because they are afraid of displeasing jehovah.
dont get me wrong there are some ignorant, arrogant, and evil jw's out there. but there are some good people who are just being mind controlled. its not that they are closed minded because thats their personality but they are closed minded because they have to be or else they are displeasing jehovah and risking d'f ing.
flower
i didnt mean to but it just came out and before i knew it i was crying and arguing with her.
well not really arguing but getting excited.
she got mad and said 'so what are you saying that you dont think this is the truth?
i couldnt help myself and i talk to my mom this morning about some of this stuff. i didnt mean to but it just came out and before i knew it i was crying and arguing with her. well not really arguing but getting excited. i dont think she knew i was crying but maybe. (shes blind)
she was just sitting at the kitchen table alone and i went in and asked her what she thought of the watchtower article saying its ok for wives to celebrate xmas with their unbelieving husbands if their conscience allows them. she said she didnt see the article so i told her what mag it was and what it said. she said she didnt understand it either and that it sounded very strange to her too. i asked her how it could be wrong for one person to do things like shop for presents and go to a holiday party and not wrong for someone else. and i asked her what the scriptural basis could possibly be. she said the scripture that says 'wives be in subjection to your husbands'. i said 'so then if a dh wants her to do something unchristian then its ok?'. she couldnt answer and said it didnt make sense to her but if they put it in the watchtower then there has to be a scriptural basis for it. i started talking to her about how can they keep making changes all the time. she said 'the light keeps getting brighter'. i said 'the scriptures say the same thing they did the last time they quoted them so how can they change the meaning now?'. she said that they pray on the matter and intensely discuss the scripture and if jehovah reveals new light to them then the old meaning can change. i said then what about all those people whos lives suffered, familys cut them off, lost friends ect because they were disfellowshiped for doing something that 'new light' says is now ok. she said 'well i dont know anyone who was disfellowshiped for celebrating xmas, you arent supposed to do it but you dont get disfellowshiped for it'. i said maybe not but you are disciplined, lose your privledges, and are looked down upon, even shunned. and what about other things they have changed that used to get people disfellowshiped how can they do that to people and not go back and say 'you are now welcome back because 'new light' says what you did was ok'? she said well i dont know what other things you mean so you'd have to show me. then i asked her if its ok to pray for a df'd person and she said if you feel they're heart is good you can pray for a df'd family member but not for others. i said well according to the new watchtower shes wrong they have changed that too. she asked have i been on apostate websites and i said no i am looking up and researching stuff because i need to know for sure about this org. after the way i was treated when i was df'd i cannot believe that there is any way jehovah was behind it. she said that she feels they (the brothers on the committee) were wrong in my case and that jehovah would rectify it and they would have to answer for jehovah for what they did. i said that they were just doing what the society told them to and that the whole society in my opinion wasnt under gods direction. i said that i was thinking of coming back but i needed to understand how jehovah could be behind an org that hurt people by kicking them out and then revealing new light after their lives are in shambles, so i was researching and everything i read makes no sense and doesnt fit with jehovah being behind it. he would not do that to people who love him and try to serve him the best they can. i said that every watchtower article i read now changes something..how can that be? she said that again about the 'new light'. i said 'mom, jehovah is perfect why would he keep making mistakes that cost people happiness and marraiges ect and then reveal new light? he would reveal the truth from the beginning! she said that the GB was not perfect and made mistakes and that Satan also had to factor in. I said 'Satan gets into the watchtower mom??! you are telling me that satan can influence what is written in the watchtower??. she said yes since they are imperfect satan could influence them but that jehovah was very involved in the watchtower so i shouldnt start thinking that satan was taking it over. i told her that i didnt think at all that jehovah was involved but that they were making up all the rules themselves. she asked me if i was turning against the organization. i said no i'm just telling you what i think. she said so what am i supposed to do not go to the meeting?! i said no i'm not saying that. she got mad and said 'so what are you saying that you dont think this is the truth?' i said no i dont think it is. she said so what do you think the truth is? i said i dont know. i dont know if i'm right or wrong but i'm just saying what i think. she said she was glad i said i didnt know if i was right or wrong. i guess she figures there is still hope for me.
anyway i the conversation got more animated than i am giving it credit here and i couldnt help crying but i dont know why. i really wasnt planning to talk to her at all. but i did and now i guess its out there. i did make sure not to mention any of the stuff that i know from rays book. i almost wanted to puke though when she kept saying that the GB meditates on the scriptures, intensely prays on them and then interpretes them for us. if she only knew the truth.
i had to go to work so i dont know what she is thinking about me. i guess i'll find out when i get home. i hope she didnt tell anyone else what i said. i will have to be more careful next time not to open my big mouth. i know i shouldnt have but every time i see my mom alone i want to sit down and talk to her now. its too hard to put on a pretense. i am looking into a roommate possibility so maybe i will be out of there soon. i hope so.
but do you all think that she responded like someone who has doubts of her own and could possibly be reached?
flower
i know that people have been in the same boat as i am and have felt the same but i still feel very alone tonight.
and very depressed.
i dont think some people understand even here.
i'm sorry for posting this. i know i should be happy now that i know the truth. i've got no reason to feel down now. i dont know whats wrong with me that i feel so sad. i have my whole life ahead of me now with no jw rules to follow. i want to be happy about that. i guess i am.
my path needs to be revamped.. i do plan to have a serious discussion with elders and attend the kingdom hall.
where that will lead, time will tell.. i am not leaving mitch.
even if i did become a jehovah's witness and celibate again he would love me just the same and i him.. you cannot become ungay.
i honestly need to know something joel..
are you saying that things that the society has done in the past that were wrong and downright unchristian were just because of a few 'nutcases' in the high positions but that over all the organization IS directed by Jehovahs holy spirit and therefore we should be living by the guidelines laid out in the societys publications? is there really a possibility of this? it would change everything for me? i dont know what to belive now. i'm so screwed up
i know that people have been in the same boat as i am and have felt the same but i still feel very alone tonight.
and very depressed.
i dont think some people understand even here.
i know that people have been in the same boat as i am and have felt the same but i still feel very alone tonight. and very depressed. i dont think some people understand even here. i think lot of people even though they were lied to and scammed just like me they arent as affected somehow. maybe cause they have family that are supporting them or maybe they were generally happy as witnesses, having friends and responsibility. maybe they were able to live up to the expected standards for the most part and didnt live for years with the crushing guilt and accompanying depression that i did. i still feel like an outsider, alone in the universe. like my whole world is about to crash all around me and there isnt anything i can do to stop it. i spent so many years so sad and depressed and alone because of these lies. i did self injured myself physically and did even worse emotional and mental self inflicted wounds. there is no way to repair these things. and i find out there was no reason for it. i didnt have to be anything i tried to but couldnt. i didnt have to try so hard to do the right thing and fail. and its all because i believed these lies with my whole heart. i believed i was going to die. i'm so alone i just wish i had someone to talk to. i hate being alone. i'm still alone. i cant handle this stuff alone and i cant tell my mother like i want to. i keep running over and over in my mind what i want to say to her. i want to tell her so she will know that i'm not bad and will love me like other mothers love their daughters. but its never going to happen. when i tell her i will be an orphan for all intents and purposes. and then i will really be alone. this is hopeless and impossible and i cant handle it. i know i'm a grown woman and i dont need a mother and father but i cant handle being alone anymore and i know i am too screwed up for anyone else to want to be with. sorry for this really stupid post. i guess i just could use a hug but cyber hugs dont really count for much
does anyone know or heard of anyone that has sued the wbts?
i was just wondering i was in the organization 38 years and i feel cheated out of all those years i was in.
or how about when your disfellowshiped and your family alientates you from their lives.
there is plenty of proof that they are not acting through God or inspired by God so they have lied to us for all these years and i dont know why we cant put together a lawsuit and bring the truth out in court. all the rest of the witnesses would hear the facts and we would get the satisfaction of seeing the bastards at the top try to justify their lies. i think we would win. so why cant we do this
i'm curious about this.
it would appear that active jw's who have reservations about the societies teachings, are usually doubtful about the prohibition of accepting a blood transfusion.
oddly, few seem to have any qualms about the shunning policy whilst they are still associating.
Englishman,
You wrote: "It would appear that active JW's who have reservations about the societies teachings, are usually doubtful about the prohibition of accepting a blood transfusion. Oddly, few seem to have any qualms about the shunning policy whilst they are still associating. It is mainly ex-JW's who are incandescent with fury about shunning"
i have to disagree. in my experience with the congregations i've been in and with my family the opposite is true. my family would NEVER even think about taking blood or questioning the blood issue but they talk to me and other disfellowshiped relatives on a semi-regular basis. they dont hang out socially with us but they do talk to us. i'm sure they have a lot of problems with the shunning issue because they see everyday that we are good people and not 'apostates' or 'wicked'. they dont openly question it of course. but with the blood issue to them its just the way it is. i've never heard any of them (family or congregation) mention anything that would even make me think they were having problems with that issue. now, i have to admit that we havent had to deal much with the blood issue in our family or congregation so that may be why.
flower