Interesting read Cantleave...and I agree that religion alone does not establish morality, but that still doesn't resolve (and it probably can't for a certainty either way) whether morals requires the existence of a deity or intelligent designer. It ultimately comes down to faith and belief in either argument.
tenyearsafter
JoinedPosts by tenyearsafter
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Theists - Why does Morality require the existence of God?
by cantleave in"without god in your life, you cannot have a moral compass",,,, please explain to me why you think that should be so?
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Theists - Why does Morality require the existence of God?
by cantleave in"without god in your life, you cannot have a moral compass",,,, please explain to me why you think that should be so?
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tenyearsafter
S.
I guess I view empathy as an emotion, where morals are a set of inate values. The way I read the quoted material was that the empathic brain reacts to the facial expressions and actions that others experience. I see not doing certain things (kill, rape, steal) as an inate value...even remote cultures have certain inate values that aren't violated without sanction.
Sorry if I am not being very clear today!
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Theists - Why does Morality require the existence of God?
by cantleave in"without god in your life, you cannot have a moral compass",,,, please explain to me why you think that should be so?
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tenyearsafter
New Hope...I think you need to seperate the parts of your question. One part is the belief in God or an Intelligent Designer (the supernatural), and the other is belief in the Bible or orher "holy" book. One does not preclude the other. The biggest divider between believers and Atheists is their view of the supernatural versus the natural world. If the supernatural can't be accepted, than neither can the existence of a deity.
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Theists - Why does Morality require the existence of God?
by cantleave in"without god in your life, you cannot have a moral compass",,,, please explain to me why you think that should be so?
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tenyearsafter
HB001...I agree, religion has not been a great leader in morality. Religion is man-made, so it is subject to the same flaws as everything else man-made. Belief in a designer is different than religion.
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Theists - Why does Morality require the existence of God?
by cantleave in"without god in your life, you cannot have a moral compass",,,, please explain to me why you think that should be so?
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tenyearsafter
Good research S.
I agree that the things mentioned in the study make sense, especially when it comes to autonomic functions such as dawing back from pain. We don't have to burn ourselves to prove that it will hurt if we see someone else experience it (unless, of course, you are one of the Jackass guys!). I guess I don't quite see the connection from empathy to morality...even if I never saw or experienced murder, I would not be tempted to commit murder.
Psychopaths are unique...obviously, abnormal brain changes allow them to do what they do. And yes, they hide to avoid repercussions...because they know what they do is not accepted by society as a whole. They may not feel guilt or empathy, but they still know it is wrong based on societal values.
Great discussion!
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Theists - Why does Morality require the existence of God?
by cantleave in"without god in your life, you cannot have a moral compass",,,, please explain to me why you think that should be so?
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tenyearsafter
Thanks Ding...you summarized what I was trying to say in my ramblings!
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Theists - Why does Morality require the existence of God?
by cantleave in"without god in your life, you cannot have a moral compass",,,, please explain to me why you think that should be so?
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tenyearsafter
Satanus, I absolutely respect your opinion.
If I were argumentative (which I am not! LOL), I could ask where empathy originates from...would it be a necesssary evolution of pre-humans? I agree that any inate belief or feeling can be overidden by the factors you mentioned (many of those actions I would call "free will"). Psychopaths or Sociopaths are exceptions, yet I still believe they know what they are doing is wrong...otherwise they wouldn't conceal their actions or avoid the authorities.
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Theists - Why does Morality require the existence of God?
by cantleave in"without god in your life, you cannot have a moral compass",,,, please explain to me why you think that should be so?
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tenyearsafter
Satanus, good point...but we still have free will to choose what we want to do. Maybe "absolute" is the wrong description, but I was trying to distinguish between the two levels of morality. I think the bigger issue is, if there were no inate moral guidelines that are common to society, we would end up with cultures where murder, rape, theft, etc. would be perfectly acceptable and legal. As far as I know, there are no cultures where those are universally accepted concepts. Certainly there are elements within the culture that do those things, but they would not be considered "legal" or moral. If we were to make blanket assumptions like that, we would say that every Muslim is a murderous terroist or every Hindu believes in murdering their wives rather than divorcing them...which we know is not true. Choice comes in to play, but that does not make it acceptable to the culture it occurs in.
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Theists - Why does Morality require the existence of God?
by cantleave in"without god in your life, you cannot have a moral compass",,,, please explain to me why you think that should be so?
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tenyearsafter
Relative morality doesn't require a belief in God, but absolute morality (that which would appear to be naturally present, ie: not to murder, steal, etc.) needs to stem from some source. If we soley evolved from inanimate matter, it would be as big a stretch of credibility to believe that people automatically evolved morals that are, for the most part, basic to all cultures, as is believing an intelligent designer put those morals in place.
The big mistake Theists make, is assuming that Atheists are immoral people. There are as many immoral Theists as there are Atheists...and as many moral people of both sides...the real question lies in where the absolute moral guidelines came from. We all can create relative morality to suit our needs...even serial killers can rationalize their actions, though most know what they are doing is "morally" wrong.
My parents contributed 100% of my DNA...if they were perfect citizens, it is still up to me to choose my own path of morality. I won't automatically become a stellar citizen...I could choose to be a criminal. I believe we all have that choice despite knowing what morals we were imprinted with by our parents.
I personally think the argument for absolute morals via an intelligent designer is more plausible than a chance convergence of do's and don'ts across cultures.
Don't know if that makes sense, but in my weakened state of having a cold, it's the best I could do!!
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My Letter to Brooklyn about the Parousia that got me disfellowshipped
by cofty inthis is the letter i wrote back in '96 about the parousia.
following the '95 watchtower that disconnected the "generation" from 1914 i began to look carefully at end-time prophecy and soon discovered what i knew were basic errors in what i had been taught.. i was a loyal jw at the time and was still serving as an elder.
i used only watchtower publications in my research.
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tenyearsafter
Cofty, excellent research and articulation of the subject...your approach was very Ray Franz-like. I think your comments were very non-threatening...
Too bad it is the utterances inspired by demons, spewed by mentally diseased apostates! (LOL)