Posts by tenyearsafter

305

McKinney Texas pool party?

by Marvin Shilmer in

so today i was asked my thoughts on the pool party incident in mcminney, texas.

my response: it shows a clash of expectations.

i saw police officers who expected citizens to listen to and follow instructions.

Jonathan Drake...I can answer your question regarding drawing of guns and when the Taser is appropriate. Guns come out when a weapon is seen or suspected. Police are trained to react to the threat. A Taser is not a good choice if confronting someone who has a lethal weapon. A Taser is best utilized in a situation where a person is acting in a resistive and violent manner. When a weapon is involved, police are trained to meet that force with equal force. Guns against guns are obvious...but many people don't understand why police draw guns against a knife wielding person. It has been proven that a knife is just as deadly as a gun in distances less than 20 feet (approx. 6 meters). A knife wielding person can close the distance faster than a person can draw a gun. FBI studies show that the majority of police involved shootings occur at distances of less than 10 feet (3 meters). A Taser is not effective beyond 20 feet. It is a matter of being able to prevail in a confrontation...cops are not paid to get injured or killed.

As too why Australia isn't like the U.S., it is simple...there are fewer guns in circulation in Australia. The risks are higher for U.S. police...there have already been 14 officers killed by gunfire this year, and 2014 registered 49 gunfire related deaths. Australia hasn't lost an officer to gunfire since 2012.

305

McKinney Texas pool party?

by Marvin Shilmer in

so today i was asked my thoughts on the pool party incident in mcminney, texas.

my response: it shows a clash of expectations.

i saw police officers who expected citizens to listen to and follow instructions.

tenyearsafter

I would caution relying solely on video footage of an incident. So often, it is a snippet in time, and doesn't always show the entire incident. Video is helpful, but it has limitations...too many people take a small video clip as telling the whole story.

Even body cams, which are being touted as the way to curb abuse, have limitations. The cameras are usually worn on the front of the uniform shirt. In the event of an officer involved shooting, the camera's view can be obstructed by the officer's shooter stance (arms out in front of them, two handed grip on the gun) and thus block seeing the actions leading up to, and the actual shooting itself. Like every tool, it is helpful, but not foolproof.

As I mentioned before, nothing is as simple as it seems...tasers fail, pepper spray can be ineffective, impact weapons can have no effect, emotions can get out of control, audio and video recorders can be unusable, and people get scared in stressful situations. If we could control all of these, we would likely be having less of these conversations.

305

McKinney Texas pool party?

by Marvin Shilmer in

so today i was asked my thoughts on the pool party incident in mcminney, texas.

my response: it shows a clash of expectations.

i saw police officers who expected citizens to listen to and follow instructions.

tenyearsafter

Billyblobber...I agree with several of your observations. And it is true, every area is different in demographics and crime levels. I worked in an area that was a mix of very prosperous professionals and a large Hispanic population. We had a fairly active gang scene, so we typically went from a "barking dog" call to a "man with a gun" call. I saw my fair share of youth oriented crime, and dealt with all types of ethnicities. As a rookie cop, I was trained to treat everyone the same, without consideration of race. What I did see in my years on the job was the jaded attitude officers could develop over time. This was not towards a specific race, but rather a "type". The type included black gang members, Hispanic gang members and white supremacists. The common thread tying them all together was not color but behavior. It is very difficult to not become jaded when dealing with these idiots...where it becomes problematic is when one fails to differentiate between the thug and the law abiding citizen. I think this is what happens in many lower socio-economic areas, and thus the negative interaction with the local police.

If you haven't done so yet Billy, I would recommend you do a ride along with a busy department. It may reinforce your opinions, or it may give you an additional perspective on police officers. It can be a real eye opener, and it will be unscripted.

305

McKinney Texas pool party?

by Marvin Shilmer in

so today i was asked my thoughts on the pool party incident in mcminney, texas.

my response: it shows a clash of expectations.

i saw police officers who expected citizens to listen to and follow instructions.

tenyearsafter

To clarify, police officers are not civilians...they are constitutionally sworn to an oath similar to the military oath to uphold the US Constitution and State laws. By taking this oath, they are given certain authority that civilians do not have. They can effect arrests, use force to effect arrest, protect themselves or the public at risk by using force up to and including lethal force, and are able to detain and investigate suspected criminal behavior for reasonable suspicion (not to be confused with reasonable cause, which is the standard for arrest). Police are granted far broader powers than civilians. With that comes responsibility to use discretion when possible to diffuse situations rather than escalate them, If someone actively resists lawful efforts by an officer, that is when escalation of force comes in to play. Once a citizen escalates to a level of violence where they endanger the police or public with weapons, police are trained and authorized to use the level of force to overcome that. That may not sit well with people, it is, in fact, the law of the land. I doubt highly the British system would work in the US. There are far too many weapons available here versus other countries. Gun control is an entirely different discussion, but what we currently have to deal with is a glut of guns in the streets. Unarmed police would be ineffective against that scenario. Training and selection is the best answer to the current situation. Until we have RoboCops, mistakes will happen and emotions will cause bad decisions.

I would encourage anyone who can, to avail themselves of doing a citizen ride along with their local police department. It will give you an interesting perspective of what happens on a daily basis doing the job. I guarantee you will see things differently...

305

McKinney Texas pool party?

by Marvin Shilmer in

so today i was asked my thoughts on the pool party incident in mcminney, texas.

my response: it shows a clash of expectations.

i saw police officers who expected citizens to listen to and follow instructions.

tenyearsafter

Paul...I have no doubt that abuses happen, but I didn't see it in my career. I worked on the West Coast, which is probably different than the East Coast. I am not denying that there are bad cops...or racist cops. A few bad apples spoil the barrel, and police work is no different. I just hesitate to generalize...and this applies to everyone. For people to say all cops are bad is like saying all white people are racists or all black people are criminals...we all know that is ridiculous, but our personal experiences mold our opinions. I am sorry that you had to be subjected to that type of behavior...it is inexcusable. With regard to police encounters, I still do believe that the majority of bad outcomes could be avoided by compliance rather than resistance. Have a good night...

305

McKinney Texas pool party?

by Marvin Shilmer in

so today i was asked my thoughts on the pool party incident in mcminney, texas.

my response: it shows a clash of expectations.

i saw police officers who expected citizens to listen to and follow instructions.

tenyearsafter

I doubt highly that either side of this argument will surrender to the other. The one comment I would make is that unless you have experienced what a police officer does, it is impossible to understand the stress, complexity and craziness of the job. It is often said, police work is 98% boredom interrupted by 2% terror. In my career, I have been spit on, assaulted and shot at...and I can tell you it isn't fun. I understand that some people say, "that's the job you chose to do", but that is dismissive of the reality of dealing with people who believe they are exempt from the rules of law. Because they are human, some officers can lose perspective and act outside of their scope of authority. I am not going to convince anyone here to change their opinion...I can only reiterate the one absolute...if people comply, excessive force would be a very rare occurence. In 30 years of policing, I have never seen anyone beaten, tasered or shot for complying with a lawful order from a police officer. That may be anecdotal, but it is a compilation of my 30 years of dealing with the public. If anyone can present facts that dispute my experiences, I am very open to hear and consider them.

305

McKinney Texas pool party?

by Marvin Shilmer in

so today i was asked my thoughts on the pool party incident in mcminney, texas.

my response: it shows a clash of expectations.

i saw police officers who expected citizens to listen to and follow instructions.

tenyearsafter

Having been a police officer for 30 years, I have a different perspective than others commenting on this topic. Everyone is influenced by their own life experiences and social biases. As I have watched the various incidents from Ferguson to this Texas pool party unfold, a common thread ties them all together. Without exception, each incident would have had a different outcome if the subjects involved had complied with the police during the interaction. I am not siding with any specific officer's actions, as some of the police tactics were unprofessional, up to and including criminal. My point is, like it or not, we live in a country of laws, and the police are charged with enforcing those laws. Just because we may not agree with a certain law, doesn't exempt us of having to follow the law. If we don't agree with the law, we need to work to have that law changed. Challenging or refusing to comply with the police only escalates a situation. The police are legally empowered to "use whatever force is necessary to effect an arrest". Use of force is never a pretty thing, and when seen on a video can be shocking to the average citizen. I have personally experienced countless acts of disrespect and outright contempt of the law. I would ask a question of the most vocal critics...what should the police do when people refuse to follow the law and resist the efforts of police to peacefully enforce the law? Should the police just give up and leave the scene? If people refuse to comply and follow verbal commands, should that end the continuum of enforcement? Bottom line, it never is as easy or simple as people not involved in any given situation think. In the case of the McKinney incident, crowds can become dangerous quickly...even if they are teenagers at a pool party. I am not going to judge the officer's actions, but rather have you place yourself in that situation. What I saw on the video was a large group of people involved in a some type of volatile situation. When police arrive, they don't know what the situation is, they can only process what they see upon arrival. Police are human, and can feel scared in volatile scenarios. No amount of training can prevent all types of emotional responses by an officer. In the current environment of police distrust, the police are "damned if you do, and damned if you don't". I personally am glad that I am not starting my career in law enforcement...it is not a "good" career any longer. I go back to my simplistic bottom line...if people comply, the majority of situations resolve peacefully and without harm to the participants.

7

New way of preacing?

by dogon in

i have noticed that in florida at least i see at every flea market and or town square jws sitting drinking coffee with a table and a couple of sandwich signs with watchtowers and awakes doing nothing more than playing on their phones and or talking to each other.

i have not yet seen anyone going up to them and engaging them but i bet they are counting time.

what a cheat.

tenyearsafter

I just came back from Europe, and cart witnessing seems quite popular. I have yet to see one in the States, but saw several while on my trip. The interesting thing was, the people manning the carts never spoke to anyone that I could see...in one case, there were two carts together, and the JW's spent their time talking to each other. Very odd...

21

Mother's day according to Joseph Rutherford

by opusdei1972 in

this is what the second president of the watchtower society, the channel of god appointed in 1919, wrote about the mother's day:.

satan would turn the people away from this beautiful symbol, and therefore from god, and cause them to disregard the word of the lord.

this he does in a very subtle way by organizing what in england and in america, the chief countries of christendom, is called "mother's day".

tenyearsafter

Mommy issues....

38

Things I trust more than the Jehovah's Witnesses Governing Body

by OnTheWayOut in

i stole this, from of all places, rick fearon.

i don't know who he stole it from.

please think of more.. things i trust more than the jehovah's witnesses governing body+ the media+ mexican tap water+ cappuccino from bill cosby+ a bigfoot sighting+ a politician who says "trust me"+ an al qaeda who wants flying lessons, but skips landing and take-offs+ a hillary clinton war story+ bill clinton wanting to give a speech at an all-female school+ gas station sushi+ a brian williams or bill o'rielly news report+ email from a nigerian prince.

tenyearsafter

I think it originally came from someone's opinion piece called "Things I Trust More Than Obama"...but it certainly fits here!