Greetings PioneerSchmioneer,
I began this thread for two reasons—to present my findings and elicit “substantive criticism” Substantive criticism entails first reading what I have written then, finding a problem with the points made, presenting a more reasonable explanation of the facts. So far the only person who has approached this has been peacefulpete who attempted to otherwise explain Jubilees’ explication of twenty-two works with specific arguments regarding how to count the works of creation in the text. This necessitated a response from me and I find that my response squarely addressed the points he raised.
Unfortunately, you have gone in a different direction. You have not made “substantive criticisms” of my paper for the simple fact that you still have not cited any factual errors or flaws in my reasoning from what I have written. You said concerning my thesis, “My comments were not meant in anyway to be seen or read as saying I disagree,” and concerning the alternative thesis (symmetrical arrangement), “I neither disagree with nor endorse the view.” So you have presented yourself as a non-committal observer who is simply throwing out disinterested comments on the subject.
Yet your comments from the beginning have made implicit arguments. And so I have tried from the beginning to address your points. But the fact that you do not formally make arguments or explicitly cite sources in support of your pronouncements makes things unnecessarily difficult. And when you have given a name, Konrad Schmid, the scholar actually said the opposite of the position you had taken. And when this was demonstrated to you, you simply attempted to turn things around and characterized my citations as “red herrings” and “gaslighting.”
Your only explicit point is to question my level of Hebrew proficiency. But even here there is no “substantive criticism” of my position. Why? Because your questioning is not based on examples of factual errors related to Hebrew in my paper or even in my comments here. Your questioning came in relation to my statement that Krüger is wrong in his utilization of a symmetrical arrangement of eight creative acts. You took an opposing position and claimed, “The text has a cadence to it that demonstrates this.” Please note that this claim effectively makes you an advocate for a symmetrical arrangement of eight creative acts even through you say, “I neither disagree with nor endorse the view.”
Now if it is true that “cadence” in the text “demonstrates” an intentional symmetrical arrangement of eight creative works by the author, it would be important to the discussion of the narrative structure. And so I replied, “I would very much like to hear how ‘cadence’ can account for … glaring logical problems in the symmetrical arrangement as well as how scholars who recognize these problems like I do are in error.” Thus I am asking you to substantiate your point here. I, for my part, have already substantiated my own claim that the utilization of a symmetrical arrangement of eight creative acts by scholars is wrong by the very paper I have written. Yet you failed to substantiate your own claim when asked. And I tried to bring this fact to your attention, but apparently to avail.
And thus you have continued on, unsubstantiated in your own claim, trying to shift the burden of proof back on to me to prove my understanding of Hebrew is such to sustain the claim I made. But again, this I have already done in my paper, a paper from which you still have yet to cite any example of a factual error related to Hebrew on my part, let alone anything fatal to the position I advance. Remember, the thread is about making “substantive criticisms” of the alternative narrative structure which I advance in my paper. It is therefore obvious that any criticism should start there since that is the whole point of the discussion. But you dismiss the idea as “BS” and say that my directing you to my paper is the same situation as what the translators of the New World Translation do. Let us once again take up your comparison with an example to show exactly how one should proceed in offering criticism.
Jer 29:10 in the original New World Translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (1958 edition) reads,
“For this is what Jehovah has said, ‘In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon, I shall turn my attention to you people, and I will establish toward you my good promise in bringing you back to this place.’
Jonsson argues that the translation of lĕbābel as “at Babylon” here is incorrect and should be translated as “for Babylon” (Carl Olof Jonsson, The Gentile Times Reconsidered, 4th ed. (Atlanta, Ga.: Commentary Press, 2004), 211–5). Does Jonsson simply assert that the translators of the New World Translation, by translating as “at Babylon,” show they had no knowledge of Hebrew? No. He first cites other translations and relates that while some of these read like the New World Translation, most read as “for Babylon” and explains how this actually fits better with other statements in Jeremiah. And then, not relying on an argument from populism, he goes into the reason why the preposition lĕ is best translated as “for” here by noting the opinion of Hebrew scholars. His first sentence reads, “Modern Hebrew scholars generally agree that the local or spatial sense of le is highly improbable, if not impossible, at Jer. 29:10.” Does he just end there with a blanket appeal to anonymous authorities? No. He cites a number of scholars to establish the point. Do the scholars he cites simply appeal to their own educational qualifications as if that were sufficient to establish the argument? No. They each give the specific reasons for how they arrive at the position they do from a consideration of the larger context and ancient translations. The case that Jonsson brings against the translation “at Babylon” in Jer 29:10 is therefore not established by questioning the translator’s very ability to understand Hebrew or by popularity or by simple appeals to authorities, his case is established by providing a superior explanation of the facts.
Now since the translators of the New World Translation have stated, “the merit of the translation rest[s], not on names, but upon its faithful rendition of the Scriptures from their original language,” then arguments which demonstrate that the translation has not in fact been faithful to the original language in places need to be addressed by offering an even better explanation if the translation is to still be regarded. Yet in the present example the translators have not addressed the argument made by Jonsson at all and continued on with their translation as if Jonsson’s criticism simply did not exist. This can be seen in the most recent revision of their translation which still reads “at Babylon.” It is therefore not the failure to produce credentials for inspection when asked that makes the translators suspect. Translations may be legitimate or illegitimate regardless of the credentials of the translator. It is the fact that the translators, although expressing a claim of faithfulness to the original languages, fail to answer criticisms when examples of the translation’s unfaithfulness to the original languages are brought forward.
So if you wish to put me in the role of one of the translators of the New World Translation, then that places you in the role of Jonsson. So please, do as Jonsson does with respect to the New World Translation and actually read my paper, find examples that you think constitute factual errors related to Hebrew, collect your reasoned argument as to why you believe I am in error, then bring your argument forward. And as you do this, please, instead of vague statements about how “a cadence” to the text “demonstrates” an intentional symmetrical arrangement of eight creative works based on the work of “a scholar” who worked “some decades ago,” please give me specifics as I have done with you here by clearly citing your sources like Jonsson does. Then the ball will be back in my court. And I will have to answer your “substantive criticism.” And then we will see if I fail to give a reasonable response as the translators of the New World Translation do.
In closing, you may be correct that I should have ignored you a long time ago, but not because you are a nobody, but because you have no “substantive criticism” to make. I am the nobody. You literally have the entire world of scholarship with you. Hopefully you will justify the time it takes me to type out these long responses to you by following Jonsson’s course and providing me with something substantial. Refuted or not, I can only stand the winner through the gain in knowledge.
[T]he view is found in basically all mainstream Bibles because it became accepted a very long time ago based upon how the Hebrew narrative reads like both the symmetry of prayers found in the Siddur and the Hebrew psaltry.
— PioneerSchmioneer
Some decades ago a scholar recognized that the first chapter of Genesis read like [an example of Jewish poetry] and a light bulb went off and the entire process began with a thesis. The rest was history, and now it is inside all the Bibles.
— PioneerSchmioneer
Let us finally turn to the scientific and philosophical significance of Herder’s ‘hieroglyph’. When this theory first appears in the drafts of 1768 or 1769, its claims to validity are still modest. For example, the ‘hieroglyph’ still has nothing to do with nature and natural science; it purports to be no more than a structural feature of the creation story, a complex of symmetries and parallelisms in the Mosaic description of the seven days of creation which Herder describes as a ‘hieroglyph’. Its significance at this stage is purely formal and poetic.
— Hugh Barr Nisbet, “Herder’s The Oldest Document of the Human Race and his Philosophy of Religion and History,” in On the Literature and Thought of the German Classical Era: Collected Essays, ed. Hugh Barr Nisbet (Cambridge, UK: Open Book Publishers, 2021), 155.
Two centuries ago Herder recognized the powerful symmetry between the two triads of days: Day 1 corresponds to Day 4, Day 2 to Day 5, Day 3 to Day 6. Corresponding to the light (1) are the luminaries (4); to the creation of the expanse of the sky and the separation of the waters (2) correspond the birds and the fish (5); and to the appearance of the dry land and of vegetation (3) correspond the land animals including mankind together with the gift of food (6). Medieval tradition had recognized the broad pattern, since it distinguished the work of separation (Days 1-3) from the work of adornment (Days 4-6).
— Henri Blocher, In the Beginning: The Opening Chapters of Genesis, trans. David G. Preston (Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press, 1984), 51.
Can you see why there is a need to cite sources?