quietlyleaving

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Posts by quietlyleaving

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  270

  WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  who are the false prophets today.

  by barbara anderson.

  in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

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  quietlyleaving

  debater

  re your 2 replies to me

  this from p 3 of this thread

  Hi quietlyleaving You deliberately cut short the scriptural quote but deut 18 is the jewish understanding of being inspired and how they would recognise the messiah when he comes. So lets look at it more fully not just your edited bit. Deuteronomy 18:18-22 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." 21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by Jehovah ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of Jehovah does not take place or come true, that is a message Jehovah has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him. "I will put my words in his mouth" that is the context of this whole paragraph. This is how we know the bible is inspired. This is a specific ability only certain prophets got to have. This is the blue print scripture to understand how inspiration (Getting words directly from Jehovah himself) that led to the bible being written. It is claiming this ability falsely saying you are inspired (able to speak words DIRECTLY from Jehovah) that makes you a false prophet or a false messiah. Hense why this would help them recognise the real inspired Messiah from the false ones that sprang up at the same time.

  and also your reply to me from p5 of this thread

  Hi quietlyleaving What question? you made a point on deut 18 by proof texting verses 20-22 ignoring the context of verse 18 onwards to prove your point. You then said using the Bible is the same as claiming to be inspired which is saying every Jew and every early Christian was claiming to be able to do inspired words from God himself. Therefore how do we know the Bible is inspired from all the other Jewish writings from those times?

  imo you are digging a deeper hole for yourself and still performing the same sleight of hand (that of putting your argument in the place my argument to deflect attention to something you feel you can successfully defend). But the context that you suggest I deliberately witheld still forms part of a "channel of communication". And in fact the FDS does see itself as "a channel of communication" between God and men. So this imo brings the organization much closer to being seen as a prophet and therefore invites the criticism of being seen as a false prophet if we apply the points stated at verses Deut18:20-22. This is because the communications they have delivered have turned out to be "false" in the sense of untrue (failed prophecies) and "false" in the sense of causing much damage to the flock and robbing the flock of "genuine" nourishment from the bible.

  btw what is the context of Deut 18:18-20? These verses seem to make the hole you are digging for yourself into a large hole

  ql
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  270

  WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  who are the false prophets today.

  by barbara anderson.

  in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

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  quietlyleaving

  debator when you reply to the point I was making instead of to the point you wish I was making then I will reply to you. Meanwhile I stand by my point that the verses I quoted from deuteronomy undermine the prophetic authority Jehovahs witnesses appropriate for themselves.
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  270

  WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  who are the false prophets today.

  by barbara anderson.

  in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

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  quietlyleaving

  debator what about the scripture in deuteronomy 18:20-22

  20 However the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" 22 When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it.

  Here I'm taking the word prophet to include not just those who clearly prophesy about the future but also those who negotiate meaning and faith for their followers and also who function as moral critics of the society in which they live.

  Furthermore in using the bible to fulfil their mission and in using it as an authority for themselves they are speaking in Jehovahs name and thus are acting as prophets according to Deuteronomy.

  The bible both supports and undermines Jehovahs witnesses at the same time.
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  10

  Which Figured it out First - Your Right Brain or your Left Brain?

  by HintOfLime in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  hi everyone, have a question:.

  in your experience, which side figured out that the wt wasn't really "the truth" first?.

  the right side of the brain is generally considered to be the "artistic, emotional, 'all at once', sub-conscious, dreaming" side of your brain, while the left being the "logical, procedural, step 1 then step 2" side of your brain.. for me it was clearly the right side - my left side had been well trained to ignore or weasel around the logical problems with the wt.

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  quietlyleaving

  my right and left side had figured it out after the first 6-9 months (in that I noticed a disjoint between what the wts was saying and what the bible was saying) but I stayed for 30 plus years . I'm still in awe of their innocence and wholehearted service and to be honest am still partly in. It must be the back of my brain and spinal column
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  18

  the new generation teaching predicted circa 1991 !!!!!!!!

  by elderelite in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  holy shit!!!!!

  ray franz predicted the new generation teaching as early as 1991!!

  now this is taken from the 2007 edition, but that is still three years prior to it happening.

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  quietlyleaving

  now that Ray is dead and there is no chance of a fearful mass takeover, perhaps Jehovah's witnesses will bring in more of the changes he, and others like him, wished to implement.
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  17

  How Prophecy Succeeds: Jehovah's Witnesses and Prophetic Speculation

  by slimboyfat in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what do you make of this recent article by george chryssides?.

  http://www.equinoxjournals.com/ijsnr/article/viewfile/8147/pdf.

  apparently the prophetic failure of jehovah's witnesses has been overdone by opponents.

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  quietlyleaving

  Zygmunt's article can also be found in this book that jgnat draws attention to

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/196802/1/Expecting-Armageddon-book-review
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  17

  How Prophecy Succeeds: Jehovah's Witnesses and Prophetic Speculation

  by slimboyfat in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what do you make of this recent article by george chryssides?.

  http://www.equinoxjournals.com/ijsnr/article/viewfile/8147/pdf.

  apparently the prophetic failure of jehovah's witnesses has been overdone by opponents.

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  quietlyleaving

  Neonmadman

  The only thing, quietlyleaving, is that the paragraph you cite is rather disingenuous. It almost gives the impression that their prophecies haven't really failed, but that some sort of progression is ongoing, maybe just not exactly according to their calculations. Of the cited dates, at least 1914, 1918 and 1975 were specifically cited as either certain or likely dates for the same event: Armageddon. While 1925 was aimed more directly at the resurrection of the "ancient worthies," this, too was expected as an immediate precursor of Armageddon. So it's not really true in any sense that "these dates are not successive attempts to predict the same event that failed to materialize: they signify different points in a complex end-time calendar."

  okay I've gone back and reread the article in more detail and note the following that support Chryssides argument and conclusions - that Jehovahs witness prophecy plays a meaning producing role rather than a predictive role. And in so doing should not be seen largely as a group that prophesies and gets it wrong most of the time.

  Firstly Chryssides clearly tells us he is adopting a theological interrogation rather than a sociological one. I think this is an important distinction to be made as it sets the scene for being an insiders' view of Jehovahs Witnesses - that is to say he takes a perspective that accounts for faith, spirituality and experience - ie meaning making.

  from page 2 of the article

  Much of the work done on the Jehovah’s Witnesses has been sociological. As Richard Crompton observes, “theological understanding of the Watch Tower movement still lags far behind sociological understanding” (Crompton 1996, 9), and if we are to understand how the Watch Tower Society’s views on prophecy have developed in the course of its history, it is necessary to understand their theological thinking.

  then Chryssides argues that Fetsinger's conclusions (that prophetic groups continue with their dissonance provided they have the social support of their group) do not apply to Jehovahs Witnesses as they are quite different from the group Fetsinger studied - i.e that the Watchtower society are a large complex organization rather than a small "eccentric" group (p3). I guess we could argue against this from an insiders' perspective. Zygmunt (mentioned by Chryssides on page 3) taking a sociological view would agree with us in that he is quite certain that Jehovahs Witnesses form their own reality to assimilate dissonance.

  Nest Chryssides looks at the role of prohets in biblical times and says the JWs would concur with the following definition of a prophet (p. 4). He also quotes from the insight book to support his argument.

  Gerald T. Sheppard and William E. herbrechtsmeier, writing in the Encyclopedia of Religion, notes that the function of the prophet was that of a social critic, whose task was “to maintain and to reform religious tradition” (1985, 10).

  If we see the main thrust of Chryssides argument as seeing Jehovahs witnesses as fulfilling a role as described above and if we take on board that Chryssides does not deny that Jehovahs witnesses do at times try to incorporate predictive elements in their role as prophet, then I think Chryssides theological perspective is quite convincing - that prophecy, witness style, does succeed.

  edit: I really enjoyed reading Zygmunt's article and this can be found here if you have access.

  http://www.jstor.org/pss/2776152

  If you don't have access I wouldn't advise buying it as it much too expensive. Zygmunt takes a sociological perspective. He notes that each time a "prophecy" failed large numbers of witnesses left the organisation. Those who remained assimilated their dissonance to form their own reality. This perspective agrees with Fetsinger's take on prophetic groups and their failed prophecies
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  17

  How Prophecy Succeeds: Jehovah's Witnesses and Prophetic Speculation

  by slimboyfat in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what do you make of this recent article by george chryssides?.

  http://www.equinoxjournals.com/ijsnr/article/viewfile/8147/pdf.

  apparently the prophetic failure of jehovah's witnesses has been overdone by opponents.

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  quietlyleaving

  I think this paragraph from near the end of the article may explain what Chrissydes means. I haven't read the whole article, just skimmed it (so may have got it completely wrong), but this para stood out and if this is what he means about JW prophecy succeeding then I can agree with him up to a point. Interesting way of looking at witness interpretation of prophecy.

  How prophecy succeeds This exposition of the development of the Watch Tower Society’s views on prophecy reveals that the principal role of prophecy is not to predict the future, but to interpret the past. of course it would be wrong to suggest that the Society never had expectations about the future: as it acknowledges there were disappointments relating to 1914, 1918, 1925 and 1975. As has been shown, these dates are not successive attempts to predict the same event that failed to materialize: they signify different points in a complex end-time calendar. The 1925 and 1975 dates were simply abandoned, while the 1914 and 1918 dates were retained, with fresh consideration of their meaning, and continue to be regarded as significant, even though these dates are now well past. Understanding biblical prophecy is therefore more about finding meaning, both in events in human history, and in the Bible itself.
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  121

  3 Things You Should Know About Islam

  by onemore in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ....watch the video, what if we were to substitute the word islam (in the video) for watchtowerism.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcbptzalqfy.

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  quietlyleaving

  bts - imo witness women are more oppressed than muslim women
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  121

  3 Things You Should Know About Islam

  by onemore in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ....watch the video, what if we were to substitute the word islam (in the video) for watchtowerism.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcbptzalqfy.

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  quietlyleaving

  palmtree

  I also looked at other book reviews first, and found that they had problems with her book particularly the last chapters where you quoted from.

  Then I visited the open internet and found what the muslim reviewer said about the book to see if it matched what some of the scholars were saying and found it did except that he also provides excerpts from the Quran to back up his review.