I can't quite remember the post either, but it's the one where some of us seemed to have a slight disagreement with the Society on something or other!
-Say what you mean, mean what you say-
Frenchy
JoinedPosts by Frenchy
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FAQ on WT PR site
by Maxee insomeone out there has a sence of humour.. [url] http://www.geocities.com/athens/atrium/4914/beliefsfaq2.html[/url].
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ATTENTION Lurking Jehovah's Witnesses.
by Martini indear fellow jw's,.
visiting this board and briefly viewing some of the comments here your probably wondering if this db is pro or anti-jw.. your probably asking yourself is this board for active, 'loyal' jehovah's witnesses?.
i'm not sure i can speak on behalf of the posters at this db, however from my perspective i will "try" to set this matter straight for you.. are those posting here current jw's or are they hiding that they are apostates?.
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Frenchy
Before I can give full devotion to any religious claim, that claim will have to come with next to miraculous evidence. Only Christ himself can do that for us.
Me too!
waiting: Maybe that's why they shook all the time! FRUSTRATION! You think? -
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wow another convert..
by Jokemyster inway to go..i am going to get a red shiny new truck if i can get one more of you "out".
hehehe( joke) if i could i would take you by the hand and help you in your journey..good luck (yes you can say that now)
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Frenchy
I've missed so much here lately, what in the world are you talking about?
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ATTENTION Lurking Jehovah's Witnesses.
by Martini indear fellow jw's,.
visiting this board and briefly viewing some of the comments here your probably wondering if this db is pro or anti-jw.. your probably asking yourself is this board for active, 'loyal' jehovah's witnesses?.
i'm not sure i can speak on behalf of the posters at this db, however from my perspective i will "try" to set this matter straight for you.. are those posting here current jw's or are they hiding that they are apostates?.
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Frenchy
Good post, Martini. Just this morning I was reflecting on the negativity that's present here and asking myself why that is. I think that perhaps the fact that free expression is not tolerated by the WTS is a big factor in it. I can see how someone lurking might be 'frightened' into participation and assuming that all here are looking for nothing but ways and means to criticize the WTS. Maybe we are. Maybe we are striking back here in the only way we know how without hurting friends and family that do not see things the way that we do. Perhaps (for some of us, at least) we are posting the things which cause us the greatest discomfort with the hope that we are mistaken and that someone will come along and correct our thinking and that we will once again dwell in that blissful state we once reveled in. Perhaps that is why we are somewhat short tempered when that attempt is made and we see in that effort only the same type of reasoning and cliches that have for so long disgusted us.
Perhaps you will be the one that will clear things up for us. Perhaps things will be cleared up for you. Anyway, it's a means of testing what you believe. I think this is one if not the most civil board of its kind in existence. This is due to the people who participate here. Please let us know what you think. -
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What is the WT afraid of???????????????????
by Zep inok, since it was so easy to get on here i'm assuming that this place is also over run by wts critics...but anyway!.
i've read a plenty of wt mags and got sucked in enough by the whole thing to go to a few meetings and do a bible study( which i wouldn't really call a study, since we just read one of their books).i soon broke of the whole thing and didn't even read another mag for about 6 years...6 months ago i wandered into h20 out of curiosity and ended up reading up on the arguments against the wts.. i have a simple question, and its probably very naive to ask this...but why is wts so afraid of debate?...there are plenty of sites arguing against the wts...but none for, apart the official site which doesn't address the issues raised by so called "apostates" anyway.. if the wt has the the truth why dont they just refute the the arguments against them instead of shutting up shop and labelling anyone who questions them an "apostate?
" or from satan or something.. i'm really beginning to think that all this wt business is just waste of time, that if i were to go to kh and ask questions that i have, i'm more likely to be labelled a trouble making agent of satan rather than be taken at face value as someone with serious questions.
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Frenchy
I'm interested in Marion's thoughts on this but not her's exclusively. Please, anyone and everyone feel free to join in. On this matter of the Society not wanting debate, I can understand how they would not want to form a panel that would periodically allow itself to be debated on doctrine publicly. But a lot of people, including myself, would like some serious questions answered. In other words, we would like the communication to be two way instead of one way. Some may reply that we could request a 'Bible Study' which, as most of us will readily admit, is not really a Bible study but more a publication study. Or some may say that we could invite the C.O. over and he would explain these things to us. What would be the problem with that? Sounds reasonable!
Not really. A 'Bible study' is not and never was meant as a format or forum for doctrinal matters to be discussed, it is a means of teaching doctrine, not discussing it. A visit from the C.O. is virtually the same thing. It is never a discussion it's always a 'lesson'. The C.O.'s don't have the authority to go beyond what they have been told anymore than you and I do. They are not allowed critical analysis of doctrine, they are only permitted to restate it seven different kinds of ways.
It's important for us to understand that a C.O. will never admit to you that they share any of your doubts about a certain doctrine. They may express it very diplomatically to the D.O. but never to you. Their job is to convince you that what you are being taught is true regarless of how illogical it really is in your own eyes. There can be no discussion with a C.O. or a D.O. or even with your elders who answer to these guys.
So my question is: What is one to do? Where do you go to discuss your questions? The Society's stance is this: Weare going to tell youhow it is. You can never, ever tell us anything. Even if you should be so bold as to do so and even if we consider what you said and decide that it's true. If a decision is made to go that way, we will inform the masses that this change is a result of new light coming from God and thus let you know in no uncertain terms that you had nothing to do with it. We will even go so far to tell you that 'independent' thinking is to be avoided. In other words, you let us think. That's not your job!
So how should sincere questions be handled for one who does not want to 'wait on Jehovah' (translation: the Society)?Edited by - Frenchy on 17 June 2000 12:48:36
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Where's Spec?
by Frenchy ini can't keep up with all the posts now but i don't seem to be able to find spectromize anywhere?
has anyone 'seen' him lately?.
hey, old buddy, where are ya?
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Frenchy
I can't keep up with all the posts now but I don't seem to be able to find Spectromize anywhere? Has anyone 'seen' him lately?
Hey, old buddy, where are ya? -
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Disassociated
by Scorpion init has been an experience to say the least.
i accepted eagerly the teachings of the watchower bible and tract society over the last 7 years.
i have been a dedicated pioneer for four of those years.
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Frenchy
SC, I can appreciate just how difficult that decision and that action were. Life is a journey, not a place, we are constantly moving. My best wishes to you and your family in what will be a difficult time for a while, at least. Let us know how we can be of help.
One must follow his heart. To quote someone else: "To thine ownself be true." If it wasn't a cajun who said that, then he heard it from the cajun! Hang in there, buddy. -
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"Elder's Kids are the Worst?"
by Pathofthorns ini'm not sure if its my limited perspective, but i have heard the saying "elder's kids are the worst".. from my perspective, the saying appears to have much merrit.
if this is true, why would those who seemingly are raised in the "best possible environment" and who would in theory be raised in harmony with the society's direction (good "spiritual routine" , meetings, service, family study etc) turn out the worst?.
could it be that an elder's schedule is too busy for his family?
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Frenchy
I served as an elder for many years. My children never gave me any real problems, they never got into serious trouble. I know other elders as well who had well-behaved children that grew up to be fine adults, loved and respected by everyone.
I know some, however, who had very mis-behaved children that grew up to be even worse adults. In my life's experience I would have to say that the elders' children are no worse than anyone else's. I would also have to say that they are no better. I find that to be significant.
The elders' children are often expected to behave better than 'the others' and perhaps that's because it's the elders that are are always telling everyone how to raise their children. I think that publishers are more critical of their children for that reason just like they are more critical of the elders' faults. I don't think there is a way around that.
Elders do not necessarily have to neglect their family. I did not neglect mine. I did what I could and what I did not have time to get to, I just let it go. The C.O.'s were nice about it but I know it frustrated them that some of the 'routine' that a P.O. was supposed to take care of was often neglected. I simply told them that I didn't have the time to do it. They smiled and told me to get to it when I could. This was especially true with getting the congregation account audited!
Elders are sometimes prone to use their position as an excuse for not spending time with their families just like some business men use their busy schedule for the same reason. Men are like that! They like to feel important. They want to be in the middle of what's happening and feel that they are in control and all the while they delude themselves into thinking it's for the benefit of their family. It's not, it's for their ego.
Elders' children, like elders and M.S. are under the spotlight. They are expected to be exemplarary. This is a lot of pressure. They want to be part of 'the crowd'. They are already denied this at school and now they are being excluded in the congregation by the other youths who feel that they may squal to their father if they see something not quite 'kosher'! Sometimes that is a little too much. -
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What is the WT afraid of???????????????????
by Zep inok, since it was so easy to get on here i'm assuming that this place is also over run by wts critics...but anyway!.
i've read a plenty of wt mags and got sucked in enough by the whole thing to go to a few meetings and do a bible study( which i wouldn't really call a study, since we just read one of their books).i soon broke of the whole thing and didn't even read another mag for about 6 years...6 months ago i wandered into h20 out of curiosity and ended up reading up on the arguments against the wts.. i have a simple question, and its probably very naive to ask this...but why is wts so afraid of debate?...there are plenty of sites arguing against the wts...but none for, apart the official site which doesn't address the issues raised by so called "apostates" anyway.. if the wt has the the truth why dont they just refute the the arguments against them instead of shutting up shop and labelling anyone who questions them an "apostate?
" or from satan or something.. i'm really beginning to think that all this wt business is just waste of time, that if i were to go to kh and ask questions that i have, i'm more likely to be labelled a trouble making agent of satan rather than be taken at face value as someone with serious questions.
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Frenchy
Am I allowed to disagree with you?
Speaking for myself: Absolutely!
Why would anyone even THINK the Society would want to "debate" you, or anyone else objecting to their doctrines.
Just MHO, but I would think that when you stand up and categorically condemn allreligions in the world and say that you aloneare God's spokesman and 'channel of communication' that you take upon yourself a responsibility to defend that claim that you have made. When you send five million people out to tell others (most of whom already belong to a religion) what they must do to become 'approved by God' I would think that you have a responsibility to prove beyond reasonable doubt the message that you are asking them to believe is correct. When you tell a mother that she must allow her child to die rather than take a blood transfusion and that God will bring this child back in the resurrection then I think you had better be positively sure and be able to present incontrovertible proof that you are without a shadow of a doubt correct. To quote of of 'their' favorite phrases, 'lives are at stake'. When you tell a son to turn his back on his father because his father no longer accepts a particular religious philosophy, then you had better be completely certain of your right to do this to that family. I believe it only fair that one so presumptuous be called upon to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they are correct.
No one should be allowed to make the claim of being God's representative without being required to show substantial proof of this. This is especially true when such an entity has made very pronounced errors in predictions and doctrine.
Those are my views on the matter, marion. I'm not presenting these here to 'argue' with anyone, just to state what I believe. I respect your views and would like to hear more about them. If you see some fallacy in my reasoning then please say so and I will consider that too. -
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Irony of "Rebellious" Youth
by Pathofthorns ini've found it quite interesting talking to several young ones who lead double lives.
the sad thing is, i don't find these ones so wicked.
i find them basically good kids who got a little messed up because no one had any time for them, or attempts to relate were rather lame.. the irony is that while talking to one while he was smoking a cigarette, out of nowhere he says, "but i still believe its the truth".
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Frenchy
, "but I still believe its the truth".
I, too have been puzzed by that expression when used by someone who has explicitly verbalized disagreement with WTS doctrine. This is fascinating to me becasue it's a contradictory statement.
"I don't believe it and yet I know it's true" is really what is being said. A witness is taught to accept the 'whole body of teachings' as 'the truth'. We are not allowed to be selective and yet... we have that strange, contradictory statement popping up now and then.