Spec: A couple of questions. First what do you mean by 30 days off? Off of what? Next, what if, after the 30 period he is still involved with this woman?
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
Frenchy
JoinedPosts by Frenchy
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37
Disfellowshipping, again
by somebody ini'm trying to gather every scripture used to imply that the practice of disfellowshipping among christians is scriptual.
please notice that i did not say "to imply that the "idea" is scriptual, but the "practice".
any input would be of help.
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Frenchy
Thank you, Red, and you're welcome. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could have a 'religion' with that sort of attitude? Wouldn't it be great to belong to a group that is more interested in the individuals rather than the group? ...More interested in helping each other discover God and his purposes as they relate to each other rather than the self perpetuation of the religion itself? ...More interested in principles than dogmatic rules? ...More forgiving than condemning? One with the attitude of whoever is not against us is with us rather than whoever is not among us is our (and God's) enemy?
Wouldn't it be wonderful to have counselors rather than policemen? Wouldn't it be marvelous to be taught by knowledgeable men who have more compassion than knowledge? ...With the attitude of: It appears to me to be this way...but what do you think? Or, I think that you are in error but then who am I to judge? Who would not want to be part of something like that? How often I have wished for such open, honest communication.
I heard a District Overseer (extremely kind and humble man) say once at an assembly: "My wife and I pray for all of you every day, will you pray for us?" Why can't we have that? It breaks my heart to think of how it could be and what it has become.
I am perhaps harsh on the WTS. If I am it's because I expected so much of them. There was such a wonderful prospect that finally there was a place where love reigned, where social and economic status meant nothing, a place where racism did not exist, where all men and women were the children of God and were all brothers and sisters. ...A place where the strong helped the weak rather than abuse them...a place where the knowledgable taught the lowly one rather than ridicule them. ...a place where everyone was your friend.
Was that truly too much to ask? Is this beyond human ability? Is it too much to ask? Could not a group of people like that come together? I can’t help but feel that is what we all want but have settled for far less. To me paradise is not a place without problems but rather a place where the problems are solved by those living there to each other’s mutual benefit.-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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Frenchy
Waiting: It was a blunder. I intended to make this a reply to Seven’s post and I hit the wrong button! Ah well…But I am fast –sometimes!
Path: Thank you. I too have long been intrigued by Pilot’s question and Jesus’ silence.
Friend: Thank you.
Mgm: I, too’ am very discriminating when using that word. For a while I doubted also that the Bible was God’s work because I became so frustrated and angry at not getting the answers I sought. I was upset by the vague allusions to what I thought was solid doctrine. I see things differently now. It’s much like a mirror. Ever notice how much better you look in a mirror than in a video tape?
Dearest Seven: Nor I anyone like you. You are so right about the short dance and though we just barely touch but for the briefest of moments in this netherworld I am grateful for those encounters. I don’t think anyone of us will ever get the dance right. I believe that in the end we shall be judged not by what we have done but rather by how hard we tried, not by where we have arrived but rather on how far we have traveled. I for one know that I have not gone very far in life by many standards but I know how hard I fought and clawed for every inch I gained.
-back to you..-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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Frenchy
Dear Seven,
I sympathize with your dilemma. I’m in the same boat myself. I have wrestled with this for a long time and continue to do so. How does one know what is true and what is not? Most of the time there are good arguments on both (or more) sides of the issue. Most of the time we are arguing about things on which Scripture is sketchy or vague at best. The Bible is not a hand book on ‘the true religion’ in which doctrine and procedure is specifically spelled out.
I have made an interesting (to myself, at least) observation over the past few years. People don’t go to the Bible to find the truth. They first accept a ‘truth’ then they go to the Bible to prove that it’s so. And it works! Trinitarians find ample ‘proof’ in the Bible for their doctrine. Opponents of the Trinity find ample ‘proof’ that it does not exist. Sometimes both sides use the same Scripture! I am currently debating this on another board and you would be surprised at the liberties that are taken with the Scriptures.
We decide on what is so and then we spend our time finding passages in the Bible that ‘support’ our belief while downplaying those that seemingly contradict. The amazing thing about all of this is that the Bible will ‘support’ contradicting theologies. You can find in there exactly what you want to find! Perhaps that is the most amazing characteristic of this remarkable book. I can’t help but feel that God designed it so. Your true self eventually comes out. In the end you find yourself, you find out what it is that you really want.
So we have to ask ourselves what it is that we are looking for before we open that book. You want to believe that God exists? You will find it there. You want to believe that it’s just a book written by men and full of contradictions and errors? You will find that too. You want hope? It’s there. You want controversy? It’s there too. You want a reason to love your fellow man? You will find it there. Do you want a reason to despise your neighbor? You will find that too.
I sometimes feel that the Bible is more a book of questions than of answers. Questions that are to be answered from each of our individual hearts. One thing is surfacing for me that I am slowly accepting. God never intended everything to be black and white. A simple rule book would have been easy for him to produce. A simple procedural manual would have been easy too. He did not choose to do so. Why not? Why all those cryptic passages and seeming contradictions from a God of infinite wisdom? The Bible is doing it’s job. It’s making us search our hearts for what we want, what we truly desire while at the same time providing, in the background, the material that we need to construct a standard of living that God approves.
What do you want? Life on earth? It’s promised there. Life in heaven? It’s promised there too! It’s easy to find someone who is very persuasive with words and one who has worked out some clever theory based on a portion of the Bible and then from that time forward just allow this person (or organization) to do our thinking for us. In time we delude ourselves in thinking that God is ‘using’ this person to sound down ‘the truth’ to us. In reality they are simply theorizing and in the end, they have to start revising their theories as the ‘holes’ become manifest over time. The truth has to be between us (individual) and God. The Bible will help us to scrutinize our hearts and give us the encouragement for doing what we know down deep inside that we should. It is, as Paul said, sharper than any two edged sword and it does divide.
The truth will not be found on a web site or in some theologian’s book or from the manuals of a religious entity. Bits and pieces of the truth might be repeated from those and other sources from time to time but ‘the truth’ is not there. It’s in our hearts and with God’s help and our hard work we can release some of it.-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
Edited by - Frenchy on 11 August 2000 8:31:32
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Disfellowshipping, again
by somebody ini'm trying to gather every scripture used to imply that the practice of disfellowshipping among christians is scriptual.
please notice that i did not say "to imply that the "idea" is scriptual, but the "practice".
any input would be of help.
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Frenchy
Spec: I guess I was being vague. Here is a real life example of what I am talking about.
You begin hearing rumors about a member of your congregation. As time goes on, you hear more and more of them. He is seen in dubious places and some are telling you that he is getting drunk in public. You talk to him and he denies it. More time and more reports from different people about his public drinking and now he is see with a woman not his wife. Confrontation and denial again. Now his wife come to you and reveals details that are difficult to dismiss. Confrontation and denial again. Now the other woman’s husband comes to you with an eyewitness account. Again, you confront but he denies. Time goes on and the congregation is disturbed over the matter because this guy identifies with the congregation, he is a member in good standing and is now obviously a drunk and a fornicator. More time and talks with the man and pleadings with him to determine what is wrong. He won’t open up but just denies everything.
Finally there is a preponderance of evidence and three eye witnesses to this terrible conduct. He is seen at two in the morning in a parking lot, drunk and cavorting with this woman while his teenage daughter sits in the back seat. At last he doesn’t deny the incident.
What do you do with such a man?-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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Hello Everyone
by Scorpion injust stopped by to say hi!.
the family is doing great and so are the turtles.
mr.t our 90 year old land tortoise is being shown at a church play tommorrow night.. all of the witnesses have nothing to do with my wife and kids even though none of my kids or wife were baptized as jws.
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Frenchy
Hi, SC, glad you're doing okay... drop in on us when you have the time..
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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Hello
by Angharad inhi all, thought it was about time i started posting as i have been lurking for so long.
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Frenchy
Hello to you, Ang... nice to have you on board.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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67
'Deaden your body members'
by Maxee ini recently read a post on the net regarding how often men think about sex.
i started to think about how often i did.
i followed this up with a survey on antoher site and found i ranked low and they told me i had sexual problems.
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Frenchy
Maxee: Guilt is the natural result of violating what you perceive as a faux pas, a sin if you would. Waiting is right in saying that it is often used (and very effectively so) as a weapon. That may be good and it may be bad depending on your viewpoint. What is your view of extramarital sex? (Don’t answer) If you perceive it to be sinful and you engage in it you will feel guilty.
Unfortunately our consciences do not tell us what is right and wrong. It only reacts to what we perceive as right and wrong.
One final point, guilt can be a good thing. It can keep us from making the same mistake over and over again.-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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'Deaden your body members'
by Maxee ini recently read a post on the net regarding how often men think about sex.
i started to think about how often i did.
i followed this up with a survey on antoher site and found i ranked low and they told me i had sexual problems.
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Frenchy
Maxee: I have little doubt that you conditioning as a witness has had some effect on your view of sex. This is yet another area where good common sense comes into play. I don't know your personal circumstances but if you are married then this is a matter between you and your husband. Sex is obviously not just a procreative activity for humans and to relegate it to such is to deny a truth. It is meant as a source of great enjoyment and how far you go is up to you and your mate. We think about the things we like. If you like it, then my all means think about it.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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37
Disfellowshipping, again
by somebody ini'm trying to gather every scripture used to imply that the practice of disfellowshipping among christians is scriptual.
please notice that i did not say "to imply that the "idea" is scriptual, but the "practice".
any input would be of help.
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Frenchy
Okay, I know I’m slow in responding!
Spec.I would give someone in the congregation 30 days off from the congregation and they would be welcomed back at the end of this period of time.
…suppose they are persisting in their course?
Red:Also, from my best recollection, alcoholics cannot be disfellowshipped.
They cannot be DF’d as long as they don’t get drunk, but if they persist in getting drunk they can and are DF’d. Know of one personally.
It's a complicated issue, but it seems that the Society is first and foremost concerned with how they look to the "world". The individual's spiritual life and their problems are of little relevance to the WTBTS.
Lots of truth here. Appearance is everything.
I've also noticed that disfellowshipping is based very frequently on personalities and prestige.
Also true in many cases.
Then there was the MS who was married to the daughter of an elder. He is still in prison for a murder he committed while trying to get money to support his cocaine habit. I never heard a word about his being disfellowshipped from the congregation, and to the best of my knowledge, he was not.
Also know of similar situations…but what would you suggest be done with habitual wrongdoers?