Friend

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  69

  True, or FAlse?

  by Andyman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am sure most of you have seen the following quote form the wbts's pr site:.

  "do you shun former members?.

  those who simply cease to be involved in the faith are not shunned.

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  Friend

  Andyman

  The fact that people leave off association with Jehovah’s Witnesses makes the point that people do get disgusted and leave in spite of the difficulties involved with doing so. Your actions are an example. You finally got tired of something so you left. The point is that circumstances can become unbearable at any point in time. If those circumstances are bad enough earlier on—as so many have indicated—then they would have left earlier on. That they did not leave earlier on demonstrates some redeeming feature of continued association. I hardly see how anyone can disagree.

  None of this intends to minimize suffering experienced along the way. Also, each experience will not follow the profile above because some people’s circumstances are unusual.

  As for suffering at the hands of Christian friends and various forms of shunning, yes, I too have experienced both. I will add, however, that my reading of the Bible does not lead me to think that experience with fellow Christians would be free from suffering at the hands of Christian brothers. I think that far too often people determine the expected makeup of a Christian community based upon their own ideals rather than realities set forth in scripture. Very few of us would have survived the rampant egotistical atmosphere amongst Jesus’ twelve apostles. Thankfully most of them had the right stuff!

  Friend

  Edited by - Friend on 22 July 2000 14:25:41
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  69

  True, or FAlse?

  by Andyman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am sure most of you have seen the following quote form the wbts's pr site:.

  "do you shun former members?.

  those who simply cease to be involved in the faith are not shunned.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Friend

  RedhorseWoman

  Friend, you speak of "few experiences" of the type that Kismet relates. I wish that were true. Unfortunately, over the years I found that the "few experiences" translated into the majority of experiences with JW's. The experiences that were few were those where JW's acted in a kind, loving, Christian manner.

  Experience amounts with every single moment of our lives—in this case with every single moment of association with Jehovah’s Witnesses. I have no doubt that bad encounters are experienced, but I also have no doubt that if those experiences were the norm then persons would not have expended so many years of their life embroiled with them; persons would have left much sooner.

  On the other hand, RedhorseWoman, our personal experience is just that, personal. It may or may not be parallel with that of the majority. Also, we cannot necessarily depend upon the experiences of our friends because humans tend to make friends based upon compatibility, which oftentimes means agreement on basic issues. Therefore our friends might substantiate our experiences whereas friends of other persons may defy our experiences. This is why anecdotal evidence is notoriously unreliable.

  I certainly do not discount your experiences (or those of anyone else); they are no more or less evidentiary than my own experiences, which is the point.

  My own experience is that in every congregation there are plenty of kind and loving people. In fact I contend that, on the whole, the brotherhood of Jehovah’s Witnesses is made up of kind people, people that want to do right and live according to Bible standards. Unfortunately it is the bad experiences that tend to stick in our minds. It is so easy to remember the bad and so easy to forget the good. Whatever the subject, most often we take the good for granted. It’s like bad sound at a large convention. One hour of bad sound and to hear people talk afterward sound amplification was terrible for the entire day. The same generally is true of other bad experiences.

  Friend

  Edited by - Friend on 21 July 2000 23:18:27
• 
  69

  True, or FAlse?

  by Andyman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am sure most of you have seen the following quote form the wbts's pr site:.

  "do you shun former members?.

  those who simply cease to be involved in the faith are not shunned.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Friend

  Kismet

  Experiences such as you described with your father are too common. When will everyone learn the lesson of the neighbor? Thanks for the sharing those very personal thoughts.

  Dubby

  My pseudonym should not be misunderstood for naiveté or milquetoast personality. I am not afraid to speak my mind and I don’t think anyone else should be either. If you take umbrage at what I say then please explain what or how I have misrepresented or somehow needlessly attacked character. If I have somehow misbehaved then I will promptly apologize. You apparently feel that I have somehow acted out of line or without feeling. If so, then please explain yourself. My responses to Kismet were genuine.

  You go out of your way to shoot down any adverse behavior about JW's as reported by other JW's and former JW's.

  And exactly who is "shooting down" among those sharing adverse experiences? Who is speaking in behalf of the other persons involved? Who is telling their side of the story? Who?

  Perhaps you misunderstand a basic point, that of fair play. If someone is willing to share a derogatory or defamatory story away from the other players involved then should everyone else just sit idly by thinking, "Hey, since he made the accusation it must be true"? Is that what you think we should do? Is it? You sound like the juror who during pretrial selection stated, "Well, the defendant must be guilty or else they would not have arrested him."

  Andyman

  You just can't accept that some JW's aren't very nice people.

  Of that I have no doubt. Please show where I have ever indicated otherwise.

  I know several sisters in my old congregation who didn't care one thing about who they mouthed off to. Now how would you feel if you were telling an experience and somebody accused YOU of embellishing what you were saying?

  Yes, I too have experienced similar things. So what? Should I presume that those few experiences indicate the character of the whole. Have you ever heard of the converse accident?

  How would I feel? Why should I necessarily feel anything regarding the question you ask? Should I expect that everyone else will agree with me? Should I expect that other’s experiences are the same or similar to my own? Should I take umbrage because someone is willing to stand and speak their mind? I don’t think so. I don’t think such should bother anyone. Why should it? What should bother people more so is lack of clear thinking and corresponding representations.

  Friend
• 
  69

  True, or FAlse?

  by Andyman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am sure most of you have seen the following quote form the wbts's pr site:.

  "do you shun former members?.

  those who simply cease to be involved in the faith are not shunned.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Friend

  Kismet

  “The Bethel title” aside (which is not what I was eluding too, BTW), the scenario is still difficult considering that publishers are perfectly aware that elders are the only ones disfellowshipped persons can turn to for congregational help. That means that an elder being seen with someone disfellowshipped should only raise flags if it is a very inappropriate setting. Standing beside a disfellowshipped person on the side of a public thoroughfare is hardly an inappropriate setting.

  You are also correct in that you were not there Friend, so while you may want to allege I am embellishing to satisfy your comfort level, that doesn't take away from the truth of the story. Do I need to explain to you the assuming problem?

  Please tell me where I assumed anything before offering such a lecture. As for anyone’s so-called “comfort level”, whose experience should they trust more, their own or a total stranger’s?

  I certainly do not deny that publishers could act as you described, but it would be an exception rather than a rule, at least based upon my experience. Your anecdote intimates that such reactions are the norm rather than the exception. Conclusions drawn from anecdotal evidence should be based upon the prevalent rather than the peculiar—if they are drawn at all. Using a personal experience to illustrate a point is valid in that it introduces a measure of clarity to the point; however such anecdotes don’t make the point as in evidencing it to the point of proof, which was partly my point. A person could render all sorts of claimed experiences, but persons having different experiences will not be convinced based upon that neither should they be, which was also my point. Do I need to further explain this fallacy of argumentation to you?

  I am not categorically saying you are relaying an inaccurate depiction. I am saying that your depiction defies my experience and I have offered reasons why other’s experiences are similar to my own.

  Or do you disagree with my position in that the ambiguous language used by the Society to cover their collective ass feeds and essentially encourages extremism on the part of Publishers and elders?

  Whether I agree or disagree with your position does not evidence your position one way or another as to correctness. People who are given to extremes will most likely act that way regardless of what the Society does or why, at least that is my experience; does yours differ?

  As for language used, sometimes ambiguousness is proper for the subject and sometimes it is not, which means that conclusions based strictly on ambiguity or not are ill founded. As for my feelings about the subject of this thread, namely the quote from the Society’s PR site, please read my comment above. If you have questions after that feel free to ask.

  The above also proves that Friend was attempting more to discredit the account by waving this straw man of embellishment.

  And with those words you assert that I have somehow misrepresented your story or position. Please show everyone where I did such a thing. For one, I would really like to see you try that, but please be careful not to screw up the details.

  Friend

  Edited by - Friend on 21 July 2000 14:42:7
• 
  69

  True, or FAlse?

  by Andyman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am sure most of you have seen the following quote form the wbts's pr site:.

  "do you shun former members?.

  those who simply cease to be involved in the faith are not shunned.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Friend

  Kismet

  You said:

  While serving as an elder I was driving to the bookstudy. I noticed a car broken down on the side of the road. I immediately recognised it as the vehicle belonging to a 17 yr old sister who had been df'ed the week before. I had served on the Committee. I pulled over and stayed with her until the tow truck arrived. I saw several cars of JW's drive by, mouths gaped wide open at the sight of a Bethel Elder keeping a dfed person company on the side of the road.

  Needless to say it came up for discussion after the bookstudy. I had fingers being waved in my face by older sisters and received the silent treatment form others. I actually ended the group early due to the obvious discomfort by those attending.

  I cannot say the above is false because I was not there, but I will say that certain aspects are almost impossible to believe. Your representation that a “Bethel Elder” had fingers waved in his face along with other overt and public displays of criticism sounds like embellishment has been introduced into a incident. If that part of the story is embellished then maybe other parts are too, like the actual reaction of those publishers.

  A more likely scenario is that you did as described about waiting with the 17-year-old and then later, after the book study, you had polite and genuine inquiries about that action for which you forthrightly offered an explanation.

  Friend
• 
  69

  True, or FAlse?

  by Andyman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am sure most of you have seen the following quote form the wbts's pr site:.

  "do you shun former members?.

  those who simply cease to be involved in the faith are not shunned.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Friend

  waiting

  Well put!

  RedhorseWoman

  You said:

  I love the way they leave out the teeny-weeny fact that these "members" must sit alone and have no interaction with anyone.

  I think that little tidbit is more than imputed by the term shun.

  Friend
• 
  14

  ONE SIZE FITS ALL

  by SolidSender in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  you were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

  1 cor 7.23, neb .

  ok in response to critics of my man pleaser xandit post my point is this: .

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  Friend

  Maxee

  Friend you like to skirt around the issues.

  A thing like that is easy enough to say. Now can you explain what you mean and provide an example where I have supposedly skirted an issue? Generally my habit is to call things as I have evaluated them rather than nibbling at the edges. Since you assert that I like to skirt issues then you should have no problem finding an example.

  Very much unlike Mr(s) SolidCyberTroll, you will find that I am willing to stand up for my actions by addressing queries about them.

  Friend
• 
  14

  ONE SIZE FITS ALL

  by SolidSender in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  you were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

  1 cor 7.23, neb .

  ok in response to critics of my man pleaser xandit post my point is this: .

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  Friend

  waiting

  "one"??? Better correct your spelling before SS gets his pocket dictionary out.

  LOL! Yes, SolidCyberTroll might turn in a synopsis on why I should have used the old English vnto! It would just be more entertainment. I’m done with it.

  Friend
• 
  12

  ON SECOND THOUGHTS

  by SolidSender in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  you were bought at a price; do not become a slave of men.

  1 cor 7.23, neb .

  bittertruth,.

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  Friend

  waiting, et al,

  Squirm, baby, squirm!

  With that we have the final piece of evidence that SS is no less than a cyber-troll. Their symptoms are not that of a hurting person nor that of a downtrodden spirit. What we have here is pure and unfettered cyber-trollism.

  SolidCyberTroll

  If and when you decide to discuss issues—starting with your own lunacy—then let me know. I want to help you if that is possible. For now, you have wasted enough of my time. The next time you say something reasonably intelligent will be the next time I respond. What a loser you personify. Do you have a job? (We already know about your education, we can see it.)

  Friend
• 
  14

  ONE SIZE FITS ALL

  by SolidSender in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  you were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

  1 cor 7.23, neb .

  ok in response to critics of my man pleaser xandit post my point is this: .

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  Friend

  Zep

  YAWN?????...c'mon Friend, this aint Witnet!

  Sorry, Zep. I was so terribly bored by the puerile response of You Know who on this thread that I momentarily lapsed into a semi-doze. Guess I simultaneously hit my keyboard. I think the sound minds present probably understand.

  Xandit

  This guy takes himself real seriously doesn't he?

  No, [s]he does not take themselves seriously at all. Anyone taking themselves seriously would not have left the embarrassing trail of stupidity that this person has. SS is just another cyber-troll.

  Yes, waiting, I said the "s" word. When the shoe fits so perfectly, I say, "Put it one them!"

  Friend