Sorry don'tfitin, I feel for you and your daughter, been through that pain. I sent you a PM
Tornintwo
JoinedPosts by Tornintwo
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10
Neglect of Adolescents by the WTBTS - Excellent Article
by Tornintwo ini have been thinking a lot about the lack of support, judgement and criticism of teenagers in the organisation.
i am dealing with the fallout of these policies with my two adolescents...i found this excellent article this morning which is worth a read for anyone interested in this topic - see the links below but first i also wanted to add my own bugbear, forgive the rant: .
a key factor which isn't mentioned in the article is the 'bad association' rule and it's extended application.
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A question about fading....
by Tornintwo ini understand that many on this forum are undertaking a slow fade, over months, years even.. can i ask what is the benefit of that instead of a fast fade?.
as i understand it, the elders only have to deal judicially with people who are still active witnesses, known in the community as witnesses, having contact and influence with witnesses etc.
so surely the sooner you stop attending meetings the better.
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Tornintwo
I haven't attended at all for about 3 months now, my daughter hasn't for 2 months. No contact by elders yet since the c.o. Shepherding call when I was first doubting..'touch wood'. You're right I'm fortunate I don't have extended family who are witnesses, only my husband who thinks the devil has got to me!
I was just wondering more for my daughters sake more than anything, any judicial action would be very damaging as she is vulnerable, so I would fight it tooth and nail if they tried.
I do have an ex jw friend who has been inactive for about 3 years. She goes to the memorial and odd meeting, is very close to her prominent jw family (elder & pioneers) because they work together , but is living an 'immoral life', nobody bothers her because she's not 'seen' as a jw anymore. Although some witnesses avoid her of course, there's been no attempt at judicial action.
But I can see there seems to be great disparities between countries, cultures, even individual congregations about the way these things are handled by the 'spiritual policemen'
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A question about fading....
by Tornintwo ini understand that many on this forum are undertaking a slow fade, over months, years even.. can i ask what is the benefit of that instead of a fast fade?.
as i understand it, the elders only have to deal judicially with people who are still active witnesses, known in the community as witnesses, having contact and influence with witnesses etc.
so surely the sooner you stop attending meetings the better.
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Tornintwo
I understand that many on this forum are undertaking a slow fade, over months, years even.
Can I ask what is the benefit of that instead of a fast fade?
as I understand it, the elders only have to deal judicially with people who are still active witnesses, known in the community as witnesses, having contact and influence with witnesses etc. so surely the sooner you stop attending meetings the better. Because then if you do something 'wrong' (be it celebrations, 'apostasy', associating with df'd ones, or immorality etc) the elders hopefully won't chase you to deal with it judicially because you are no longer considered a member of the congregation. At least that is the case where I am, once your gone, they don't seem to care that much.
Have I missed something? Maybe is it an attempt to preserve family relations that needs a slow fade?
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My fade might well start today.
by StarTrekAngel inmany here whom have read my previous posts know more or less my situation.
wife is not hardcore but we still bump heads from time to time.
if it wasn't for this cult, and while it was not an issue, we had an almost perfect marriage.
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Tornintwo
Sorry therapy did not go as you thought it would, but bear in mind that most therapists try to gain the trust of their clients in the early sessions and hold back from challenging their views until that trust is established.
with regard to the children, I've noticed a lot of posters saying once they were out their children followed suit, that's been the case with my teenage daughter who until recently appeared to be very enthusiastic about the religion. After all, most kids just want to fit in and be accepted, given the choice between being 'normal' with birthday parties, Xmas etc, freedom to choose friends and sleep in at the weekend, compared to life as a jw, most will choose the normal option. (It seems harder when the kids are older in their 20s and have gone through all the pier pressure stuff and committed to the org, married a dub etc.. ) Don't bad mouth the wt or your wife but try to make it appealing to stay home with you.
You sound like you have a good marriage and she's not overly committed to the org, so when your show her you can be a good husband and have fun together with you out of the organisation, her attendance might well die off naturally. A lot of people find it hard to make a vocal 'decision' because of the guilt but drifting away might be the easy option for her, you could look happy and relaxed with a glass of wine in hand when she comes in tired after a meeting. Why not start fading if your hearts not in it? I've faded fast and the elders haven't bothered me.
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Indoctrination and subordination
by Tornintwo inthere are so many gems in in search of christian freedom but i thought this section in 'indoctrination and subordination' was excellent, summing things up brilliantly, worth highlighting for anyone who hasn't read the book;.
"the sum of the evidence is, then, that although no extreme physical isolation occurs, a very effective mental isolation is pro- duced by the organizations interpretation placed on jesus words about not being part of the world.
the community of believers becomes quite insulated and intellectually sealed off from any source of scriptural material other than that coming from the one voice, that of the organization.
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Tornintwo
Reading the real life examples of the effects of this isolationist, captive religion is powerful ' witness' that it isn't natural, human or christian. -
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Tornintwo
It's unchristian for sure, so sorry if this practice is hurting you right now -
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JWs have more good points than bad
by lsw1961 in1) many who were on the destructive path have been transformed by their teachings (this includes me who was once vicious, and presumptuous and atheistic).
2) equal monthly pay to all members of the bethel community regardless of whether they are bc members or sweepers.
this is something that still remains as an unattainable dream for the world.
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Tornintwo
I think if you recognize there are good and bad points in the witness organisation, you then have to concede that there are good and bad points in all Christian religions, such as those that do many charitable works to help those genuinely suffering. If God will overlook the negatives in the witness faith why not in other faiths? There are wheat and weeds everywhere, I've met a fair few nasty weeds in the jw org.
But the problem really comes to the fore when those negatives in an organisation amount to abuse. Such as :
allowing children to be raped under the cover of your religion through misapplication of the ancient 2 witness rule.
Or cutting off young people from their communities and families because they may be confused or have committed a 'sin', in many cases leading to depression, even suicide.
Or telling a battered wife that her situation isn't extreme enough for a separation and never for a divorce, telling her to forgive and be more submissive, sending her back into a potentially dangerous escalation of violence.
Or telling depressed, downtrodden and exhausted ones to just do more.
Or telling people they don't need an education, a career or a retirement plan, then mocking them in derision when they complain about that bad advice and its consequences.
or looking down on all non witnesses as 'worldly' ones, or is it 'amharets' as the Pharisees used to say and preaching death and destruction for 999 out of 1000, removing the love and mercy of christs message
or insisting people die when medical advances could save them, through misapplication of an ancient dietary law, when Jesus again and again emphasized the value of life (hence breaking gods law in curing on the sabbath)
or lying and concealing past mistakes and false prophecy, blaming almighty God for old light or their followers for misunderstanding ('75ers')
If we use the abuser analogy; Would you say because an abusive husband is kind at times and does good works that excuses him subjecting his wife and children to violence? That they should put up with the abuse for the sake of the good points? Or would you say they are right to seek peace and protection elsewhere?
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One Year Later - A Thank You to Tony Morris.
by cappytan indear anthony morris, iii:.
i wanted to send you a note of "thanks" on this special day.. why is this day special, you may ask?
one year ago today, you, tony, woke me up to the fact that the governing body could not have jehovah's blessing or direction.. last year, on november 8th & 9th, 2014, the united states branch visit was broadcast to over 1,000,000 jehovah's witnesses across the country.. as i sat at the kingdom hall listening to the "historic occasion," i was ignoring certain doubts that had surfaced in the few months prior.
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Tornintwo
I wonder if this is why AMIII appeared so unsure of himself in the last JW broadcasting, that it's got back to him that these people leaving the 'truth' are talking on the internet about how it was his talk which lead them to think this isn't Jehovah's organization?!. And it's not just this one, here is my personal 'favourite' which I found utterly shocking the first time , ignore Cedar's intro if you don't like him:
Or listen to the whole talk, where AMIII kindly reminds us that our favourite uncle won't get through Armageddon just because he's a nice person:
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Greetings
by Pioneerbot inwanted to say hi.
i've been lurking for a long time.
i also spend time on other forums.
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Tornintwo
Hi pioneerbot and welcome! Well done getting you and your kids out! Would love to hear what woke you up? I'm recently awakened, one of my kids left a year before me and the witnesses' bad treatment of him started my doubts. My other older child has just left too. I'm relieved because they have their whole lives ahead of them to live free of the control of the organization, whereas we are just picking up the pieces of our lives. Good luck with your husband, mine is fully indoctrinated and I don't think a mass resignation by the GB could even wake him up! I agree this forum is great, a place to rant and laugh and debate and support eachother, with people who actually get what your going through X
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Indoctrination and subordination
by Tornintwo inthere are so many gems in in search of christian freedom but i thought this section in 'indoctrination and subordination' was excellent, summing things up brilliantly, worth highlighting for anyone who hasn't read the book;.
"the sum of the evidence is, then, that although no extreme physical isolation occurs, a very effective mental isolation is pro- duced by the organizations interpretation placed on jesus words about not being part of the world.
the community of believers becomes quite insulated and intellectually sealed off from any source of scriptural material other than that coming from the one voice, that of the organization.
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Tornintwo
There are so many gems in In Search of Christian Freedom but I thought this section in 'indoctrination and subordination' was excellent, summing things up brilliantly, worth highlighting for anyone who hasn't read the book;
"The sum of the evidence is, then, that although no extreme physical isolation occurs, a very effective mental isolation is pro- duced by the organization’s interpretation placed on Jesus’ words about not being part of the world. The community of believers becomes quite insulated and intellectually sealed off from any source of Scriptural material other than that coming from the one voice, that of the organization. They are continually told that this is the only way to keep them from being misled. The apparent aim is to create a sterile atmosphere in which the views and interpretations of the orga- nization can circulate freely without having to confront any challenge.
As a rule the longer one is associated with the organization the more concentrated his or her social contacts are, the more restricted friendships are to those within the organization. Even “worldly” relatives, meaning non-Witness relatives, are often gradually shunted off to a rather cool and distant relationship.
One’s thus becoming part of an exclusive community with only limited, “necessary” contact with anyone outside is the factor that gives such enormous power to any disfellowshiping decree established by the organization. One’s whole social life resides within the organization. If associated for many years, to be disfellowshiped means to be cut off from virtually every friend- ship one has.
Particularly for those in their elderly years of life this can present a devastatingly depressing prospect. The situation par- allels closely that of persons in apostolic times who were ‘cast out of the synagogue,’ since the synagogue was the center of all so- cial contact in a Jewish community.23
I strongly doubt that most persons, in reading the Bible itself, would ever be led to view Jesus’ words about not being part of the world in the extreme way conveyed by the Watch Tower publications. Not that such an exclusivistic view is not found in the Bible. It is. But it is the viewpoint taken by the Pharisees, not that taught by Jesus Christ or his apostles. As already seen, the very name “Pharisee” means “separated” or “exclusive.” In their extreme views, this religious group sought to be separate from, and exclude from their associa- tion, all persons not holding to their particular traditional teach- ings and standards of holiness, viewing all such as “unclean.”24
Jesus Christ set a very different example from such extremists and this incensed them, caused them to condemn him and the way he associated with others. In reading his words, not only in the Sermon on the Mount but in all his teachings, one finds that Jesus’ primary focus was not on an elaborate set of doctrinal interpretations but on the real goal set out in the Scriptures, their true aim and thrust, namely love of God and love of neighbor."