Posts by garybuss

28

Why atheism?

by Skimmer in

jw
friends

on varieties of atheism:.

can we even speak of clear and distinct ideological borders among atheists, agnostics, and theists?

absent any commonly accepted scientific proof of the existence of god (or gods), we must consider that the labeling is based on an individual's personal interpretation.

I wanted to be a believing theist and a Jehovah’s Witness. I just lost my ability to deny reality and suspend disbelief. A rational approach to life required rational thinking and much of the information provided to me to accept as fact by the Jehovah’s Witnesses was dogmatic by nature and did not have the ability to withstand objective scrutiny. Dido theism.

I probably am agnostic on many subjects. I am skeptical of all claims relative to ghosts, gods, goblins and things super-(un)- human. I wait to see the proof of intervention by gods in the affairs of humans.

I have never seen one human problem or need solved or filled by any other than a human way. Give me a hungry mystic and a hungry humanist and I believe I can tell you who will get fed first every time.

76

Years in v. Years Out

by Billygoat in

jw
friends

i'd like to find out how many years collectively we have acquired in the wts.

please list how many years you were/have been a jw.

please also list how many years you have been out.

garybuss

Born in to age 30

Out 27 years

38

How would you react to a sheparding call?

by friendorfoe in

jw
friends

put aside for a moment your statis of the organization, it's saturday morning and your on the other side of the ole familar knock.

"hello i'm brotherdoesnthavealife i haven't seen you in a while" how would you react?.

it happened to me after about 6 years of being inactive and it was an elder and a c.o.

garybuss

I’d love to see JW’s at my door every day. I have had 1 uninvited call since I walked away in 1974. That came after I had not surfaced at any group function in 10 years. I gave the 2 elders 10 questions to get answers to for me.

10 years later I called one of them up and asked if they had my answers yet. By then I had read Crisis Of Conscience and had them answered by Ray Franz.

I invited several JW”s to come see me over the years. I am very interested to watch a tag team at work. I time their chants. Average 10 minutes. I watch the resting one chant by flipping pages in his Bible.

If they flip pages while I am talking, I stop till they notice I quit talking and quit flipping pages. They flip pages to block out hearing what I have to say.

Several have come to talk to me and they always promise to return but none has ever returned. The last one said “You are too smart for me.” as he was leaving.

13

Ray Franz's book , just a pack of lies?

by sleepy in

jw
friends

my wife is very sceptical of ray franz's book coc.. what i want to know is this , has the society ever shown that the events described in that book are false and the letters or statments quoted are false?

i feel their silence on the matter speaks for itself.. has the society ever sued any so called apostate writer for lies in their books?.

i personaly dont agree with all the critacism about jehovahs witnesses and understand that ray's slant on matters may not always be unbiased (who ever is?

garybuss

Hi Steven,

I have had a fair bit of experience with my own half cocked interventions and attempted disruptions. I have written about those episodes and many of those articles are on www.freeminds.org

I am currently reading Steve Hassan's book, Releasing The Bonds. It reflects my experiences pretty well and I recommend reading it with reflection before attempting to intervene in the religion of a spouse or anybody for that matter.

Also I found this true for myself. I need to have dealt with my own issues surrounding the experiences in a high control group before I can be of any real help to anybody else. That means I don't try to influence anybody else until I have completed my own grief cycle. I can't counsel somebody else with anger issues until I have worked through my own.

The principle issue with Jehovah's Witnesses is fear. I had to think of the bounds the Watch Tower Corporation implanted into the minds of Witnesses like an invisible pet fence. The dog tail wagging, sees you and momentarily forgets the shock collar. It runs toward you and POW . . . it get shocked and reminded of it's limitations. Same thing happens with a victim of a high control group when they venture out too far. The fear hits them and just like the shock collar they withdraw under the porch and It takes a long, long time before they will trust that area again because they remember the shock, or the fear that seems so real.

Leaving a high control group seems different for everyone. Seems to me we need to keep rapport number one and be supportive and be more of a resource for them when and if they do decide to leave.

For couples, a marriage counselor trained in the dynamics of a high control group has accomplished far more than the disconfirming information approach. I would advise to never confront a Witness with disconfirming information or questions. I would advise to thoroughly do your own homework and do not stop with Jehovah's Witnesses. Investigate Second Adventists, William Miller, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

Be suspect of "faith", belief without proof. That is how you were tricked before. And last of all investigate the objective history of theism. Read Carl Sagan's, Demon Haunted World. It will show you how to recognize hype and dogmatism from objective reality. When you investigate, always take the approach opposite to your perceived stand. That means if you are a skeptic, read as a true believer putting together an objective research. If you are a true believer, research as a skeptic.

Never read one book. Read point counterpoint. No real expert has read only one book. Look at both sides objectively.

When I did all this, my approach to a person living in a delusion is very different than it was before I got my education.

Best wishes to all,

gb

13

Ray Franz's book , just a pack of lies?

by sleepy in

jw
friends

my wife is very sceptical of ray franz's book coc.. what i want to know is this , has the society ever shown that the events described in that book are false and the letters or statments quoted are false?

i feel their silence on the matter speaks for itself.. has the society ever sued any so called apostate writer for lies in their books?.

i personaly dont agree with all the critacism about jehovahs witnesses and understand that ray's slant on matters may not always be unbiased (who ever is?

garybuss

Hi Steven,

My point is this. By authority of the Watch Tower Corporation the elders use the doctrine of “absolute spiritual endangerment” as their grounds to require spouses to separate from their mates. I am aware of hundreds of cases where a spouse tries to influence a mate to think critically about the Watch Tower Corporation (let alone introducing Ray Franz) and the mate goes to the elders with the information to resolve it and bam! The mate is advised and many times required to separate from the spouse providing the perceived endangerment.

It is tantamount to waving a red flag in front of a bull.

If a person wants a separation from a Witness, a frontal attack with COC is a proven right move.

This is the application of the doctrine of “absolute endangerment of spirituality”.

gb

13

Ray Franz's book , just a pack of lies?

by sleepy in

jw
friends

my wife is very sceptical of ray franz's book coc.. what i want to know is this , has the society ever shown that the events described in that book are false and the letters or statments quoted are false?

i feel their silence on the matter speaks for itself.. has the society ever sued any so called apostate writer for lies in their books?.

i personaly dont agree with all the critacism about jehovahs witnesses and understand that ray's slant on matters may not always be unbiased (who ever is?

garybuss

Hi Sleepy

If your wife is a believing Jehovah’s Witness, you might want to take a break from hammering her with Ray Franz and do your own research in Watch Tower Corporation publications on the subject of “absolute spiritual endangerment”.

I’d like to hear what you think of that doctrine and it’s history of application.

gb

68

finding friends outside the Borg - a Scary thought

by lydia in

jw
friends

has anyone else found that the teaching of the "outside world" being a "bad association" limits your involvement and ability to make new freinds?.

if so how have you overcome this and any suggestions to helping those suffering from these feelings?.

lydia

garybuss

After my mind started working in a rational way, I started judging people by how they treated me and how they treated people important to me rather than judging them by their perceived beliefs or by their claims to purity of some sort.

During my life as an agent for the Watch Tower Corporation, I declined many, many social invitations offered by co-workers, neighbors, and acquaintances. To make new friends I, at first, simply made it a rule for myself to accept all invitations. That worked wonders and in time I started inviting people to do things with me. I became involved in a wisdom group. I became involved in a weekly lunch.

I started to enjoy people and helping them do things. I do enjoy social involvement and the kindness and wisdom I get from my friends is appreciated and it feels normal and natural.

26

how long were you out before...

by lydia in

jw
friends

hello all.. i'm just trying to get a handle on everyone in here..so how long have all of you been out of the borg?

also how long was it till you got on here??.

lydia

garybuss

Hi Lydia

I drifted away in 1974 and kicked the door in 1975. I was a believing walkaway and lived with that dread of impending doom I had know my whole life until I took some questions to the elders in 1993. I had read Crisis Of Conscience by then. I was actually hoping they could answer my questions in a satisfactory way and I could return to the group and more association with my Witness relatives. I got a knee jerk reaction and soon after I approached the elders with my questions the shunning started.

I took a rather high profile approach to voicing the results of my extensive research into the Watch Tower Corporation and it’s history. That has had the positive effect of being marked as apostate. I have been communicating by internet with Witnesses, past and present, since 1995.

I live near Sioux Falls, South Dakota USA.

31

Supplementary meeting: synopsis

by Moxy in

jw
friends

the meetings were held in michigan (bibleexaminer), long island (nytelecom), san diego (elder families only), and here in toronto.. the stadium we used is the same we normally use for district conventions.

unlike the dc tho, which is spread over 2 weekends at the stadium, it was packed absolutely full.

it was very hard to find seats anywhere, just a few singles here and there and lots standing in the halls.

garybuss

Hype gets more important as a real purpose for a group declines or when actual events of encouragement do not exist. I have been in business and sales most of my life. A Watch Tower Corporation rally like an assembly or a “special” meeting like the supplementary meeting is simply a sales rally designed to stir up enthusiasm among the sales force.

I see nothing unique in the Watch Tower Corporation’s strategy. They actually seem to be lacking many sales business strategies. Many sales businesses play on the elevated egos of it’s sales force. The Watch Tower Corporation seems to want to deflate the egos of it’s sales people. A tactic that will always produce a deflated sales report.

If the Corporation would reward it’s sales people with praise, recognition and ego promotions and instill a spirit of cooperation and appreciation, they most likely would raise moral and increase book sales and donations as well. Their meetings are rote and ritual but they obviously appeal to millions worldwide. Their strategy of instilling fear and hatred and deflating the egos of their sales force does take it’s toll as evidenced by the documentable high rates of turnover.

This ticketed meeting was actually a pretty smart move. People scrambling to be sure they get tickets, getting anxious in anticipation, filling auditoriums, and sitting for hours. They may have actually created another “class”. The supplementary meeting class.

31

Hey There ! All You Disfellowshipped Ones!

by Englishman in

jw
friends

is your anger with the jw religion due mainly to the fact that you have been df'd?

is it possible that persons who post here who are not disfellowshipped can feel as angry as those who are being shunned and who are therefore being effectively gagged?.

is the df'ing policy of the wtbts the main reason that ex-jw's seem to go all out to get other witnesses out of the org?

garybuss

Maybe the criticism offered is not in a spirit of anger but outrage. The product of a high control group like the Watch Tower Corporation is division and loss. It’s victims are left in a grief cycle. Denial, bargaining, anger, sadness, and finally acceptance.

With acceptance comes a degree of indifference and with indifference comes a sense of freedom to move on to other things.

A rational person seeks justice or the perception of justice. Conflict with a closed hierarchy system results in frustration. That frustration, to an insider looks like anger. A rational person seeks objectivity and objective, rational thought is discouraged in a closed system. The rational person is seen as weak for not believing. The rational person is seen as sinful for not accepting based on blind faith.

Yet the true believer would not think of going to a medical doctor who relied strictly on blind faith in his methods for her own treatment. The true believer requires a strictly pragmatic approach to every other area in her life. She will not buy food from a grocer who blindly believes his food to be fresh. He is required to demonstrate. She will not go to a dentist who has no credentials at all but truly believes he is capable. She can immediately dismiss him as a fraud.

This true believer lives in a capsule. All not inside the capsule is suspect and strange looking, flawed without test. Thinkers are feared. All criticism is seen as anger. All critics are seen as the enemy.