i have read much discussion about understanding the fanatic muslim terrorists reason's for this attack.
even suggesting that they have a legitimate basis for their hatred of the united states.
even a call for more tolerance toward, this sect of hatred.. yet these same individuals make it very clear that they cannot tolerate jehovah's witnesses.
DannyBear,
Cultic, fanatic religion is no shadowy invented enemy, it is real and palpable, as we have so clearly seen this week.
I agree. It is so easy to forget that a way of thinking is the enemy, not necessarily the people themselves.
Thoughts can be changed. All of us here are proof of that.
That is why I urge surgical precision as far as that is possible.
Ginny
i have read much discussion about understanding the fanatic muslim terrorists reason's for this attack.
even suggesting that they have a legitimate basis for their hatred of the united states.
even a call for more tolerance toward, this sect of hatred.. yet these same individuals make it very clear that they cannot tolerate jehovah's witnesses.
DannyBear,
Perhaps you do not intend it so, but every time you refer to Muslims as animals, I think of this passage from Sam Keen's The Passionate Life. It is from a chapter called "The Perversity of Normality" and under a heading called "Consensual Paranoia: The Tribe versus the Enemy."
It may be that one of the earliest human inventions was the image of an enemy. And shortly after that came weapons, for killing. Typically, propaganda changes the enemy from a human being into a demon, an incarnation of evil, a stain that must be wiped from the earth. The human face, which might have been loved, is changed into a loathsome thing, an animal. The Jap becomes an ape, the Nazi a blond beast, the American a capitalist pig, the communist an atheist, the Jew a vermin. By contrast, the majority of names tribes have invented for themselves mean simply "the people," man or human. The Carib of South America, for instance, say, "We alone are people."
Ginny
i have read much discussion about understanding the fanatic muslim terrorists reason's for this attack.
even suggesting that they have a legitimate basis for their hatred of the united states.
even a call for more tolerance toward, this sect of hatred.. yet these same individuals make it very clear that they cannot tolerate jehovah's witnesses.
DannyBear,
You answer your own question:
How can you reconcile researching, revealing, and exposing the lies and fanaticism of Jehovah's Witnesses, yet call for caution and reasonablness when confronted with the Muslim 'in your face, murderous, lying animals, who just wreaked havoc on our nation and community? [Bolding mine.]
I don't think I've ever seen anyone here call for bombing all Jehovah's Witnesses or their training camp in Brooklyn because we understand that fanatical thinking is at the root of this problem.
Separated from their warped religious thinking, most Jehovah's Witnesses are good people. Their humanity often shines through despite their indoctrination.
Do many Jehovah's Witnesses hope for the death of those they consider "wicked," Satanic, their enemies? Certainly. Would I consider most individual JWs "lying, murderous animals"? No.
It is also helpful to remember that religious indoctrination runs along a continuum. Some indoctrination is more extreme. I thought another poster put it well: "These terrorists no more represent all believers in Islam than the Ku Klux Klan represents all believers in Christianity."
In our own way, many of us on this board are shouting from the rooftops about the insanity of the Jehovah's Witness religion. To kill the Governing Body would be ineffective--it would make them martyrs. The "persecution" would be yet another sign of God's favor.
I view religious organizations like this as I would a person who is insane. Such an organization must be strait-jacketed to prevent harm to itself and others. At the same time, by exposing the lies and fanatical thinking, we take away its primary weapon and means of spiritual terrorism.
The most terrible of all the moral paradoxes, the Gordian knot that must be unraveled if history is to continue, is that we create evil out of our highest ideals and most noble aspirations. We so need to be heroic, to be on the side of God, to eliminate evil, to clean up the world, to be victorious over death, that we visit destruction and death on all who stand in the way of our heroic historical destiny. We scapegoat and create absolute enemies, not because we are intrinsically cruel, but because focusing our anger on an outside target, striking at strangers, brings our tribe or nation together and allows us to be part of a close and loving in-group. We create surplus evil because we need to belong. . . .If we desire peace, each of us must begin to demythologize the enemy; . . ."
from "The Enemy Maker" by Sam Keen, an essay in Meeting the Shadow
Ginny
dear friends:.
ive taken a few days to post, having a need to sort out my thoughts and watch the coverage along with my co-workers, family, and neighbors.
ive also read your posts over the past 48 hours and seen many of the same reactions as the population in general.
Naeblis,
Everyone else in this thread seems to have either wandered off to bed or to the adult forum.
Would you care to dance in the pale moonlight? I have some Beanie Babies on the grill. Or perhaps I can just watch you work in your usual attire, eh?
My name is Ginny.
dear friends:.
ive taken a few days to post, having a need to sort out my thoughts and watch the coverage along with my co-workers, family, and neighbors.
ive also read your posts over the past 48 hours and seen many of the same reactions as the population in general.
DannyBear,
I do not "disdain" killing, i.e. refuse or reject it with aloof contempt or scorn. I do respect life, so I hope that there will be as little killing as possible.
Ginny
i appreciate the words of another poster who commented that he felt it unwise to post in anger.
i have tried to hold calm and keep my anger in check, but that started to change with my nato posting yesterday.. i am set back over 30 years: i was raised to respect all races, and not to be prejudiced.
i was also raised a proud american, and that it was important not to tolerate bullies.
Amazing,
I am not suggesting that the U.S. talk, meet, and negotiate for decades. I am pleading that the U.S. target the criminals as closely as it possibly can.
There are certainly times when one must kill or be killed. I do not wish to live in a society in which the power to kill is used indiscriminately and without regard for what is just.
Ginny
dear friends:.
ive taken a few days to post, having a need to sort out my thoughts and watch the coverage along with my co-workers, family, and neighbors.
ive also read your posts over the past 48 hours and seen many of the same reactions as the population in general.
DannyBear,
I prefer the phrase as a whole, just as it is presented between semicolons in the verse:
a time to kill, and a time to heal;
As I said to Amazing, I think the difference between us is that you want to quickly amputate a whole leg. My hope is that all involved will use surgical precision and try to heal the rest of the leg.
Ginny
dear friends:.
ive taken a few days to post, having a need to sort out my thoughts and watch the coverage along with my co-workers, family, and neighbors.
ive also read your posts over the past 48 hours and seen many of the same reactions as the population in general.
DannyBear,
Ah, I see. You were just presenting a "simple fact."
I like the version in Ecclesiastes better.
Good luck with your Bible rewrite.
Ginny
dear friends:.
ive taken a few days to post, having a need to sort out my thoughts and watch the coverage along with my co-workers, family, and neighbors.
ive also read your posts over the past 48 hours and seen many of the same reactions as the population in general.
DannyBear,
Just for the record, it's not:
"A time kill or be killed" [sic]
but
"a time to kill, and a time to heal".
Ginny
i appreciate the words of another poster who commented that he felt it unwise to post in anger.
i have tried to hold calm and keep my anger in check, but that started to change with my nato posting yesterday.. i am set back over 30 years: i was raised to respect all races, and not to be prejudiced.
i was also raised a proud american, and that it was important not to tolerate bullies.
Amazing,
If we human beings deteriorate to a kill-or-be-killed mentality, you may kill me first. I would rather die than live with such barbaric terrorism. It's as Gen. Merrill McPeak said, "You have to ask, `What's the endgame?' You want to come out with a safer, more secure environment," not just brute survival.
How can you swing your saber at "turban-heads" and yet say that you are not thinking of all Arabs? American Arabs are good but other Arabs are bad? What if in the future the United States harbors criminals? Will you accept a bombing of the U.S. as your due for being a citizen of this government?
Terrorists are criminals, whatever their ethnic, religious, or national affiliation. I hope that those who have aided and abetted these criminals will be brought to justice.
As I see it, the difference between us is that you want to quickly amputate a whole leg. My hope is that all involved will use surgical precision and try to heal the rest of the leg.
I happen to have been born in the United States. I still consider myself primarily a citizen of the world. I refuse to use arbitrary national borders to collectively judge large groups of people.
Ginny
