Posts by GinnyTosken

If I am a conscientious person, I will consider the effects my choices may have on others when I decide what to do. I can only guess at what effect my words and actions will have and must make the best choice I can in each instance.

[I'm editing this post to add that I also think it's very important to remember that many of the people who come to this site will likely not have a strong sense of self and may be highly suggestible. We can each conscientiously try to find a balance between caring for our own needs and looking out for the needs of others. Personally, I don't feel that I must return to JW-speak, but I don't jump in a newbie's face with accusations, either.]

I am very sorry about what happened to Hillary_step, but I also understand that this discussion board suffers from what MommieDark calls the "bell jar effect." Most of us here were wounded in similar ways. We all come here in various stages of grief--anger, sadness, guilt, remorse, inadequacy, depression. While I feel for the newbie posting his first post, I also try to make allowances for the people who are already here. We're all learning and coping with our own hurt feelings. While I wish we would all react in ways that show understanding, compassion, and maturity, I realize that it is unrealistic to expect this from a bell jar full of hurting people.

I think the best we can hope for is a balance between reactions. I'm glad you were there to offer a hand to Hillary_step. I hope that at least one of us in the bell jar will be there with a welcoming word when newbies arrive. From what I've observed, this is usually true.

I'm glad you posted. It helps to be reminded of how a chance encounter can affect someone's life.

Ginny

6

Bethelcoachtours.com <- has anyone seen this?

by slipnslidemaster in

jw
friends

http://www.bethelcoachtours.com/index.htm .

have you guys seen this yet?

oh brother!!.

GinnyTosken

Slip,

This is too funny! I think we should use this service to arrange an Apost-O-Fest in New York.

Are the trips properly supervised?
Spiritual things and conduct are always a priority, and there is always proper supervision. A talk to this effect is given to all shortly after they board the bus for the first time.
What is the dress code for the trip?
In all instances, at all times, your clothing should be modest and neat. On the trip to and from New York, it is best to dress comfortable. Sweats are excellent because they are comfortable. When touring the Watchtower facilities wear meeting clothes, i.e. dresses or skirts for women and girls, suits and a tie for men and boys. (See the March 1998 Our Kingdom Ministry Question Box on page 7). During our play time touring the sites of New York and Canada casual wear is fine as long as it is neat and clean.
How often do we stop for rest stops or bathroom breaks?
We stop to eat three times a day plus every two to two and a half hours we stop just to take a brake and go to the bathroom or just walk around for a few minutes. Plus, there is a bathroom on the bus, but it is best to use it only for emergencies.
Can I sit by who I want to on the bus?
Everyone will have a assigned seat but during the daylight hours you are welcome to move around and visit with others. You can even change seats for awhile if the other person doesn't mind.

Ginny, "If I don't get assigned to sit by Norm, I ain't goin'" class

20

Misdiagnosis

by larc in

jw
friends

well, fine ladies and handsome gentlemen,.

1. someone is called a troll, and, in fact, they are a troll.

that is called a "true positive".

GinnyTosken

Under American law, a person is considered innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof rests on whoever makes an accusation. The person who called Hillary_step a troll should be asked for his proof; Hillary_step is not obliged to prove anything.

It's the same whenever one person calls another person a liar. Whoever makes the accusation is under obligation to prove that his claim is true. The person accused is under no obligation.

See http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html

Hillary_step left. That was Hillary_step's choice. Who and what influenced him to make that decision? Only he can say. Each of us can estimate the share we had in influencing Hillary_step's decision, but only he knows for sure.

Words in and of themselves have no power: "Tomme tønner ramler mest." Are those words insulting? Funny? Kind? The power of words comes from the meanings we ascribe to them, the interpretations we form from them, and how much weight we give to the opinion of the person speaking or writing them. An insult from a person for whom I care deeply will usually wound more than an insult from someone I don't know. Even then it will depend on the circumstances. Was my friend upset? Angry about something else and venting at me? Misinformed?

The degree of our influence can also be affected by chance. I may carelessly toss a banana peel. I haven't intended to cause harm. Someone else comes along, slips, and breaks a leg. Every time I get behind the wheel of my car, I take the risk that I may have a wreck and permanently alter the life of someone I don't know.

Sometimes we intend to help and end up causing someone harm. Sometimes we intend to harm and end up helping. Sometimes an act we initially consider to be harmful helps us grow in the end.

See Esmeralda's post, "Disfellowshipping: A protection in the end?"
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=18180&site=3

Our beliefs filter our perceptions, and our perceptions affect our interpretations of words and events. Once I stopped believing in the JW dogma, the words of the elders had much less power to harm me. Now I can laugh at their kangaroo courts, yet their words still have power over my family members who believe. Why is that?

It's like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz. We're wearing the ruby slippers all the time and have the power to go home, but we don't realize it. Because of my beliefs, I chose to give the words of the elders power. Once I no longer believed, I took back the power I had given them over me. I cannot hide from the fact that as an adult, I chose to give most of my power away to the Watchtower Society. The contract of beliefs included that as a woman I would subject myself to the authority of elders and men. I chose to do that.

If this example doesn't help, consider the case of Hitler in Germany. Why did the Germans choose to obey Hitler? Why did his words have power over them? Norway was occupied, and so was Denmark, but a majority of people in those countries chose to resist. Sociologists and psychologists are still trying to sort out why the German people succumbed. In Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust, Daniel Jonah Goldhagen maintains that the central component was the force of Nazi ideology, particularly antisemitism. He shows that antisemitism was the "common sense" of German society during the Nazi period and long before.

Germans chose to give their power to Hitler because they believed. Most Norwegians and Danes did not believe in Nazi ideology and were not antisemitic. They chose to resist.

If I am a conscientious person, I will consider the effects my choices may have on others when I decide what to do. I can only guess at what effect my words and actions will have and must make the best choice I can in each instance.

Ginny

There is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically.

"May be," the farmer replied.

The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful!" the neighbors exclaimed.

"May be," replied the old man.

The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune.

"May be," answered the farmer.

The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out.

"May be," said the farmer.

from http://www.rider.edu/users/suler/zenstory/maybe.html

95

Okay Fess Up: What's Your Handle Mean?

by Mindchild in

jw
friends

okay fess up: whats your handle mean?.

my handle: mindchild comes from computer scientist and futurist dr. hans moravec: who wrote the book, the future of robot and human intelligence which is a book about when we will be able to construct machines capable of human intelligence and raises the possibility of uploading ourselves (every thought we ever had) into an android body much superior to the human ones we have now.

i entertain the hope that not only will i live long enough to see this happen, i will transfer myself (the complete essence of what is me) into a body of my own choosing and become immortal if i so choose.

GinnyTosken

Jan,

I was thinking of how I got the idea that tosk meant "cod."

The stuff I added beyond "fool"--blockhead, idiot--was my mistake, and I can't blame that on the dictionary.

Ginny

95

Okay Fess Up: What's Your Handle Mean?

by Mindchild in

jw
friends

okay fess up: whats your handle mean?.

my handle: mindchild comes from computer scientist and futurist dr. hans moravec: who wrote the book, the future of robot and human intelligence which is a book about when we will be able to construct machines capable of human intelligence and raises the possibility of uploading ourselves (every thought we ever had) into an android body much superior to the human ones we have now.

i entertain the hope that not only will i live long enough to see this happen, i will transfer myself (the complete essence of what is me) into a body of my own choosing and become immortal if i so choose.

GinnyTosken

Jan,

In fact, cod is torsk in Norwegian. "Tosk" means "fool" and only that Of course, also Norwegians have been known to confuse the two words.

Well, I'm glad I try not to take myself too seriously. I can't even get my name right.

If you're correct, I must also plead a lousy Norwegian dictionary.

from the Norwegian English Dictionary by Einar Haugen.
tosk 1. dial. cod.
2. fool for en tosk hun hadde vært what a fool she had been (Skram).

As for the rest, I guess I was thinking of toskehode.

Ginny Toskehodet

95

Okay Fess Up: What's Your Handle Mean?

by Mindchild in

jw
friends

okay fess up: whats your handle mean?.

my handle: mindchild comes from computer scientist and futurist dr. hans moravec: who wrote the book, the future of robot and human intelligence which is a book about when we will be able to construct machines capable of human intelligence and raises the possibility of uploading ourselves (every thought we ever had) into an android body much superior to the human ones we have now.

i entertain the hope that not only will i live long enough to see this happen, i will transfer myself (the complete essence of what is me) into a body of my own choosing and become immortal if i so choose.

GinnyTosken

My real first name is Gina. When I joined H2O, there was already another Gina on the board, and I didn't want to be confused with her, so I chose "Ginny" instead. I have fun with these "gin" derivatives, and have also posted as "Ginger" here.

"Tosken" is Norwegian for "the cod" and is a word they use to call somebody a blockhead, a fool, or an idiot. I figured it would be a constant reminder not to take myself too seriously.

Ginny the Fool

59

THE EX-[ELDERS] FILES: EYES WIDE SHUT

by AMNESIAN in

jw
friends

(dont let the title scare or piss you off.

stay with it to the end---even if it takes you a while---and then, if you wish, by all means get pissed as you wanna be.

(final edit, thursday, january 10, 2002, 11:00 a.m. pst, usa).

GinnyTosken

Outnfree,

I thank you for the link, but ignoring AMNESIAN’S distinction, to my mind, makes the rest of your argument flawed.

As I see it, elders who "know" is a subset of elders in general. Whatever I wrote about elders will also apply to elders who "know."

Ginny

99

Farewell to all

by Amazing in

jw
friends

i already said farewell in my apology post to julie.

but many of you may not have read it since it was specific to her.. i was planning a long farewell statement because i have a number of things i want to share, but decided i would do that in private if anyone wishes.

you can reach me at [email protected].. i chose to leave for a number of reasons, and some stated on my last post.

GinnyTosken

Teejay,

I am not usually at home at this time on a Saturday afternoon. Today I am.

Until now, I hadn't intended to answer you. You said:

I do not know your intent and frankly, do not trust your intent.

If you do not trust me when I state my intent, we have no basis for meaningful communication.

Whether or not you had just cause to be angry, I can't say. I CAN say that in the matter of your 'gender joke' I (and Bigboi) had just cause to be deceived... even angry. You say that "your stance on that issue was ridiculous" but what you will apparently never see nor own up to is that my "stance" regarding your gender was based entirely on YOUR WORDS !

Event: Ginny says, "Actually, I'm a man. 'Ginny' is just my agent persona."
(from http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?site=3&id=7178&page=12 )
Interpretation: Ginny has told a joke.
Feeling: Amused.
Response: Laughs.

Event: Ginny says, "Actually, I'm a man. 'Ginny' is just my agent persona."
Interpretation: Ginny has told a lie.
Feeling: Angry and indignant.
Response: Confronts Ginny about her bad conduct.

Event: Ginny says, "I have a confession. I'm also Englishman and Tina."
(from http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=18727&site=3#231064 )
Interpretation: Ginny has told a joke.
Feeling: Amused.
Response: Laughs.

I made a false statement, and you [Bigboi] and Teejay got a wrong impression. It appears to me that both you and Teejay feel that someone needs to take responsibility for this wrong impression. Who is at fault? Who is liable?
I felt that my false statements were presented within a context that would give the careful reader cues that I was making a joke: "Ginny is just my agent persona," "Big Mean Hairy Hoss." In all of my posts previous to the one in question, and in all of my posts since, I have always referred to myself as female.
I realize that there are people in this world who need a "Liquid is very HOT" warning on a cup of coffee. I do not write for them. I do not plan to use joke disclaimers in my posts. I trust that anyone who wonders whether I am joking or being serious will ask. I feel that my liability in this case is very small.
Please think about your share of the liability. Did you read the surrounding context of my statement? Did you think about the connection between my being a man and my secret agent persona? Did either of you ask me afterwards if I was serious or joking? The only hint I received was your, "Ginny, That is sooooooooo wrong!!!" which I thought had a double meaning like, "That is soooo bad!" (Jive is not one of my fortes.)
As soon as Teejay made it clear that he literally thought I was a man, I explained the truth. It was then that I learned that you, too, literally thought I was a man.
Should I apologize? If so, for what? For making a joke? For the inability of some of my readers to read the surrounding context and understand? I do not feel it is wrong to make jokes, and I will not apologize for that. Nor do I plan to adjust my humor for the literal-minded. If you read my posts, please do so at your own risk.
from http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=18727&site=3#231064

Please accept responsibility for your own interpretation, Teejay, and stop trying to shift the blame onto my shoulders.

That was: I *always* knew that they said more about YOU -- who/what you were/are -- than they ever could about ME.

That's exactly how I feel about your posts, too, Teejay.

I know who I am. You don't. Your disparaging comments had no weight or validity because I knew you were speaking from ignorance -- your ignorance. Other factors were also at play I understood, but never did real truth or a harmony with the facts/reality as to the kind of person I am stand as any kind of support for what you said. For that reason, I could continue (and HAVE continued) to participate on this forum with you without malice, often doing so one on one. (be quiet Bigboi!... you know what I meant!)

When you speak about me, you are also speaking from ignorance--your ignorance. I, too, have tried to participate on this forum without malice. I try to be compassionate and understanding, yet very firm. I am human, and sometimes I am not civil.

I find it interesting that you seem to nearly brag (MY opinion) that you didn't apologize because... well... you weren't sorry. Interesting. It's one thing to adamantly refuse to say "I'm sorry" when new information shows us that a long held viewpoint has been right all along. It's quite another to show a staunch refusal to apologize when you make comments meant to injure (as you say was YOUR goal) or make comments that injure by mistake. I would think that when emotions settled and we looked back on it, we'd be happy to volunteer an apology.

I have learned how little lies snowball into big ones, Teejay. I firmly believe that the most dangerous lies are the lies we tell ourselves. If I am not honest with myself, I cannot be honest with others.

When I look back on my behavior and consider the circumstances and what I knew then--my perceptions, knowledge, and understanding--I feel no regret. If I were back in the same situation again, knowing only what I knew then, I would do the exact same thing. To say, "I am sorry," would be a lie, and I do not like to lie, even to preserve social relations. I don't like to pretend and would rather be direct and straightforward. Anyone who cannot accept the truth from me is not the kind of person I want for a friend anyway. This is why I like Tina so much. She may not always "season her sayings with salt," but you never have to wonder where you stand with her.

It's simply the right thing to do. I thought everyone knew that.

Neither you nor Prisca can decide for me what is right or wrong. I must answer to my own conscience.

Comic/writer/actor Steve Martin said: "An apology? Bah! Disgusting! Cowardly! Beneath the dignity of any gentleman, however wrong he might be." Is that how YOU feel? Is it beneath you, disgusting or cowardly to say "I'm sorry"? If that's how you feel, you need to adjust your thinking. We all make mistakes... even Ginny.

Sure, I make mistakes, and I try to freely admit them. I try not to take myself too seriously. On the other hand, I will not accept an unfair burden of blame just so that you will feel better.

A stubborn resistance to do what others know is right does nothing to build esteem.

I try to judge for myself what is morally right. I do not feel compelled to do "what others know is right."

Last, you said that your opinion of me has changed because now you see redeeming qualities. I submit a second unassailable truth: I HAVEN'T CHANGED. The only thing that has changed about me is your perception.

All of the same can be said about your perceptions of me. One difference is that I hope to be constantly growing and changing. In fact, my opinion of you has changed yet again since I last posted. The redeeming qualities I mentioned have been outweighed by your judgmental attitude, your need to blame and shame others, and your pettiness. Once again, from what I have seen of your behavior on this board, you disgust me.

You and I have no basis for meaningful communication, Teejay.

Ginny

If you understand, things are just as they are.
If you do not understand, things are just as they are.
--Zen Buddhist saying