Posts by LayingLow

23

I got a jesus question

by lancelink in

with the memorial season behind now, there is a question i have that in over 30 years as a jw i never got a solid answer.

jesus died for our sins; he was the perfect sacrifice, etc, etc.

i always heard how tough it must have been for god to watch his only begotten son die the way he did.

I think your view of what Jesus death effected will largely affect how you view the value of his sacrifice.

For instance, why did Jesus die?:
1. To conquer death and the devil by proving them to be lawless since death consumed a man it had no right to bind. (Eastern Orthodox view)
2. That not the person itself but the act of obedience unto death negated the actions of Adam which were disobedience unto death
3. That one perfect man sinned and one perfect man had to die in order to substitute for him. (JW)

Which one of the above ( or a mixture of which ) definitely does make a difference. JW's believe that Jesus shed his humanity to buy back what Adam lost so they can not permit theologically for him to take his flesh back and live again, even though he did. I always felt #3 left a little lacking, like what about our personal sins? The perfect man can cover original sin but what about personal sin (maybe it takes something greater than perfect man).

**** I meant to post this as a reply to a different post but in this thread. ( The one about Jesus resurrection nullifying the value of his sacrifice )

23

I got a jesus question

by lancelink in

with the memorial season behind now, there is a question i have that in over 30 years as a jw i never got a solid answer.

jesus died for our sins; he was the perfect sacrifice, etc, etc.

i always heard how tough it must have been for god to watch his only begotten son die the way he did.

LayingLow

I think one thing to consider is the selfishness of grieving in death. It's not wrong but it doesn't benefit the departed. The sadness is for us we miss our being with them. When they are in the hospital the sadness is for them, what they are going through, not how it affects us being with them. The grief for someone who is ill is more selfless than the grief over someone who died in my opinion.

Imagine that you are in trouble and you have to call someone to help you. Add to this that you have done things in the past that have constituted yourself an enemy of his. If this person is your average human being the chance of you getting anything from them is slim. Taking the illness like grief and applying it to Christ's death to me maxes out how a person can grieve for another without actually just grieving for their own loss. Jesus had to feel the scourging and the pain as he hung crucified. I think that is the part God would grieve over, not the part where he wasn't feeling any pain that followed. In that instance, the knowledge of the future resurrection wouldn't dull the emotional investment of grieving over the pain Jesus had to endure in the meantime.

I should add to this that I know I can't read the thoughts of God. This is just a thought.

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

LayingLow

I don't claim to have all the answers for this discussion, but I would like to add a few thoughts.

1.) Is Jesus eternally existing? (In the beginning the word was-John 1:1. Isaiah 9:6-9(Eternal Father).

2.) Is the son of someone the same person? No. I can not presume to say that God has DNA. But let's suppose that in a human someone has an offspring and uses only their own DNA. In on other words, it is what they are. You may call them a clone or whatever you would like to call the person.

At first they would be different but as the one matured they would become more alike. If I believed Jesus had a beginning of his existence I would think this to be how it went. However, since I believe he has existed eternally as the Word of God and that God has never had a time when he had no Word, no expression of his thought. Therefore I picture Jesus being the exact representation of his Father's being, having the same nature as the Father, and aside from the Holy Spirit (Which I have not researched enough to discuss), is the only person existing as "God". As all humans exist as "Man". I think that tends towards tri-theism slightly or bi-theism but I can't help put together what I think the scriptures say. I thought about that plant that was mentioned earlier, however. Each tree would have the same DNA but share one common source of life. If that can exist in a plant why not in God?

I think there are two things going on, one is a push towards tri-theism that denies the oneness in the operation of God and fails to account for some scriptures. The other is a push towards "oneness" in that some people try to prove that Jesus is the Father using some oneness scriptures and denying the scriptures that prove they are separate people. I personally feel that the trinity is the position that accounts for both types of scriptures. I don't run around saying God died on the Cross but I also wouldn't deny that Jesus truly has the nature of God and is to be worshipped.

39

How have you benefited by leaving the WT Organization?

by Quirky1 in

this is just a curious study.

i would love to get everyone's input on how each individual or couple has benefited from leaving the jw/wtbs as well as how their life is currently vs. being part of the organization.. eyes wide open .

quirky1 .

LayingLow

Before I doubts of doctrine that the JW's taught which made life constantly stressful. I was stressed in service because I didn't feel that what I had was 'the truth'. I felt stressed at meetings and my stomach would get sick because of hearing wrong doctrine and boasting.

The benefits I now enjoy are:

1. Having an open mind (This doesn't mean I don't try to shape my life on what the Bible says. I just realize that I don't have a full understanding of everything it says.)
2. Although I don't have as full an understanding of everything as I wish I did, I no longer have to pretend that I do and try to convince others of this. I can have constructive conversations with others where we discuss and try to find meaning instead of trying to destruct their views and build them up to mine.
3. I can focus on the type of life that Jesus emphasized without constantly being sidetracked by a robotic "spiritual schedule" which keeps me too busy to really evaluate spiritual things.
4. I can exercise my Christian conscience as the Bible encourages without others telling me what my conscience says.

Maybe the most important of all is this, I look at others as real people (I couldn't do this before because I thought they were going to be destroyed so mentally I didn't allow myself to really see them as individuals). I'm not constantly judging them because that is not my job.

That's off the top of my head, there may be more.

34

Why is today the only day of the year when I feel guilty?

by And He Ran in

why is today the only day of the year when i feel guilty about having left the jws?

it's memorial day and i didn't go.

my last memorial was in 2006. last year was my first non-attendance.

LayingLow

I went to a Methodist church for their Maundy Thursday and Good Friday services. The Good Friday walk-in-communion was actually very interesting. I figured you would just walk in and partake but no. There was a handout and then people would sit by themselves and read it. It had scriptures to look up like Is 53 and Ps 22. Then there were some hymns to lookup and then meditate and pray about it. Whenever you felt comfortable you could come up and take communion. That was very interesting. Even though it felt weird not to attend the memorial this year for the first time, my conscience is clean knowing I'm keeping Christ in remembrance. Happy Pascha!

The reason I wrote this is because it helped me to deal with not attending. I knew I couldn't go and not partake. And I didn't want to 1. partake and embarrass my family, 2. make others think I'm coming back, 3. or add any credibility to their two-class Christian caste system the WTS has set up. I'm not judging any who did go, I can understand especially with family pressure. I just noted this in case those reasons help anyone else to justify their not going.

3

The North American Indian nations and the 1914 prophecy

by edmond dantes in

the witnesses claim that nation shall rise against nation prophecy happened in 1914.but if you were from one of the many north american indian nations during the previous century could you not claim that in their world it applied to them and wasn't there hundreds of tribes and nations being attacked by larger stronger nations ?

if those days were not cut short extermination would ensue with more nations involved.we remember 1914 as the start of millions being slaughtered but in the world of the native americans wasn't the previous century just as wicked..

LayingLow

Many civilizations could point to a particular period. The JW's would probably come back by saying that that wasn't worldwide. If only they would consider Matthew 24 closely along with 1 Thessalonian 5. He says that there will be wars but don't be afraid because the end is not yet. The point is that there will be wars until the end and that when Jesus comes you will know it but until he comes you will not. This is confirmed by 1 Thessalonian 5 where he says that he is coming as a thief.

Matthew 24:37-44
As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

1 Thessalonian 5:1-3 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

5

Preceding weeks' WT articles?

by nbernat in

they are pretty much glorifying themselves (the gb and anointed that is) and putting unto themselves the names of a prophet and only source for interpretation of the bible.

whatever the hell they decide to make of the bible is law and should be accepted good willingly!.

because they were named by the master jesus christ.

LayingLow

"Like they are the new Christ"
Interesting choice of words.

Christ-O.E. crist, from L. Christus, from Gk. khristos "the anointed" (translation of Heb. mashiah, see messiah), from khriein "to rub, anoint," title given to Jesus of Nazareth.

For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.
-Matthew 24:5

61

Why exactly do you come to this board?

by R.Crusoe in

i wondered if anyone, after starting to post here after so long being worried about doing, now just does it because they acn and hasn't stopped to ask why the still feel the need or even pleasure.. so why do you come here?.

do you know?.

it's not easy to completely explain what it is substiruting for imo!.

LayingLow

Mutual support- It helps knowing you're not the only one negatively affected by the WTBTS.

Doctrine- Some doctrinal discussions on other sites don't take into account the skewed presentations we as JW's were offered. This helps me to overcome previous misconceptions that I've had.

37

Interesting Banter on the Watchtower Comments Page

by V in

thought i would share this chat with you from the watchtower comments channel.. message from biblestudentsteve:.

nice production.

very slick.

LayingLow

I found it interesting that he calculated it worth while to spend his time trying to correct you by finding fault with your methods of finding faults with other peoples' methods and claiming that they were a waste of time.

He said that you should be preaching the kingdom instead of finding fault, yet he is finding fault with you and probably counting time "preaching the kingdom." I found the irony humorous.

Keep it up.

29

What is wrong with the Memorial date this year?

by Cindi_67 in

the memorial is supposed to be held in nisan 14, jewish calendar.

that day is april 19, 2008. why is the memorial being held this coming saturday march, 22?

does anybody know?

LayingLow

A little clarification: In the article posted above reference was made to the month of Nissan starting on a new moon, not a full moon. Two weeks (14 days) from a new moon is always close to the full moon. Actually, as the Jews approached Jerusalem for the passover each night would get progressively brighter and closer to the full moon. I know that at times the calendar allows for an extra month to be inserted. If the Jewish calendar did this then it would add thirty days. The WT always goes with the first new moon closest to the spring equinox.

Appropriately, the date for the Memorial celebration is arrived at as the Jews back then determined the date for the Passover. They began the month of Nisan when they could first see the new moon in the spring nearest the equinox. Passover came fourteen days later. Since the spring equinox was on March 14 this year that was only about seven days away from the new moon. Therefore, according to their method, they picked the right day.

I just thought that deserved some clarification. If anyone has any information as to why that doesn't match the Jewish calendar I would be interested to find out why. I know some years they are very close.

I remember reading from one of the church fathers about Polycarp taking a trip to Rome to meet with their bishop at the time. They had an argument over the times for the calendar to celebrate Pascha. I know Polycarp went with Nissan 14 as John instructed him and that the Bishop of Rome went with a different method (maybe the one they still use, I'm not sure.) Anyways, they argued and couldn't come to an agreement because Polycarp knew what he had been taught by John and the Bishop of Rome knew what he had been taught as passed down from Peter, Clement, Linus, etc... (Not sure of the order.) Long story short, they each continued to do it the way they did before they met. They still had communion together and didn't break the church up over it.