Posts by LayingLow

24

ENOCH & the Watchtower Society

by Honesty in

genesis 5.

5 so all the days of adam that he lived amounted to nine hundred and thirty years and he died.

8 so all the days of seth amounted to nine hundred and twelve years and he died.

LayingLow

Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 65/12 years = 5.42 years old

If that 12 lunar months are each counted as years in the totals given, does the above sound reasonable? I imagine that a counter is that 365 years old and still kicking sounds about the same, but the one is expressly written and the other is not.

I was reading something lately about the Genesis account and it was arguing that the lifespans were, well I'll just let you guys read it for yourself: http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/chronology.html

5

The 144,000, a Subset of "Spiritual Israel"?

by DNCall in

this is an alternative to "spiritual israel" and the 144,000 being one and the same.. two scriptures might support the subset idea:.

first, revelation 7:4-8 states that the 144,000 are "out of" the 12 symbolic tribes of "spiritual israel"--12,000 "out of" each tribe.

this would indicate to me that "spiritual israel" is a larger body than the 144,000 (whether a literal number or not).. second, the new covenant is said to be between god and "spiritual israel," entitling its members to be children of god and brothers of christ.

LayingLow

Some terminology used for this is "church militant" and "church triumphant".
The same thing struck me a while back as well, "out of". Funny I missed that for so long.

46

Can any who grew up JW relate to this?

by Mickey mouse in

jw
friends

confession time!

i was raised in the troof and therefor never "chose" it.

i find it really hard to get my head around why anyone would ever join this organization as an adult.

LayingLow

Wow, I can really relate with Awakened at Gilead. I recall showing people scriptures that I knew sounded very convincing but at the same time feeling something was very wrong. I can see how people can buy it. Mix in some convincing arguments + involve the emotional pacification of having all of the answers.

How many people come in to the religion because they believe the governing body is God's mouthpiece and that Jesus isn't their mediator? I doubt many. These are the doctrines that you realize later, when it's too late. I think they snag people with the unitarian view of God, annihalationism, and millenialism. Once they get someone with that, the mind shuts off and the "we must believe everything they say because we believe the big things they already told us" sets in.

13

What is Prayer ?????

by TooBad TooSad in

i believe that jehovah's witnesses are a cult and that many of the doctrines of the watchtower.

society are laughable.

when i was an active zealous elder i prayed alot every day.

LayingLow

When, as a JW, I believed God had a spirit body (like an angel but not exactly). This belief in Him having a body with defined form leads to many other conclusions.

1. He must dwell somewhere
2. He must use the Holy Spirit to control things

Later, I came to realize from reading the scriptures that God is omnipresent and that he fills all things. David said in Psalm 139:7-8 "Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there."

After thinking about it, I realized that God is spirit, not a spirit creature. He can't be contained by creation or he has created something larger than himself. God contains all things and is in all things, though all things are not God.

I considered the consequences of this realization.
1. God actually fills all thing and is therefore in all places including the space that I occupy
2. Prayers have no distance to travel to God, as he is already present

I found that quite enlightening. I don't know if you made those connections or not but I think that it contributes toward an understanding of prayer.

This also has helped me a lot, knowing that God is not "out there", but right here.

42

Why did Death not stop as soon as the RANSOM was paid?

by jwfacts in

terry's recent thread about god's love made me start wondering the above question.

normally a ransom is done as a swap, the payment is made on exchange.

2000 years ago jesus made payment by dieing.

LayingLow

I think the following link is worth checking out. Eastern Orthodoxy has a very different view of Jesus death. They will also point out some of the logical results of assuming that God's sense of justice was offended, etc...

The link is:
http://oodegr.com/english/swthria/antil1.htm (The Problem with the Juridical Position)
http://oodegr.com/english/swthria/swthria.htm (Salvation Issues Title Menu)

20

It was awful

by Mrs Smith in

as i posted in a previous thread, i went to a friends funeral on friday( i'll call him peter).

it was my first time back to a kh in years.

as i walked in i overheard a "sister" telling her friend that she had to come straight from work and that's why she was wearing pants and that she hoped no one would think that she was "wordly".

LayingLow

That was a good comeback. I think I'll use that sometime too if the occasion presents itself.

I don't know what to add to anyone else's comment about the infomercial part, just dido.

47

praying before a meal

by megaflower in

i have stopped.

it brings up too many memorys of having some elder pray for the cong before we partook of any food.

it just seemd like a big production, all would gather around and bow heads in silence while some senior male gave thanks- no more- no thanks

LayingLow

Since God knows what you are thinking, can't prayer be just that, thinking, and appreciative thoughts at that? I don't say prayers out loud when I am praying by myself because I don't think it's necessary. However, if I were to pray for a group I would speak out loud so that they could hear the sentiments of the prayer and agree if they wish. If you don't break to appreciate He can't even read your heart about it because it may be that you have never taken a moment to consider whether or not you appreciate it. Enjoying something and appreciating it are two different things. I think most people enjoy food but I don't know if all of those appreciate it. Life is better when examined and appreciated and therefore prayer is appreciative contemplation which is for our benefit and not a burdensome ritual we must continually repeat. That's my sentiment at least.

-Appended-

If he is your God and Lord, and you are his spirit begotten son, then he is your Father.
When I call my dad (in the flesh) on the phone, I don't call him by his name. I call him Dad. He knows me and I know him. I can't imagine calling him and then he says to me "Well, I don't know who you are because you don't use the exact pronunciation of my name." If he gets a call from me, he knows it's me even if I don't say "dad", but I always do. The argument that we need to some how address God by a name in prayer doesn't seem biblical but it does seem sort of legalistic. I don't remember a scripture where Christ Jesus addressed his father by name. But I do remember instances where he not only referred to Him as father, but also told us that we should as well. -Matthew 5:9.

40

What kind of a funeral do you want?

by Princess Daisy Boo in

jw
friends

so all this talk at the moment about funerals and stuff got me thinking... what kind of an exit party would i like?.

i reckon i would not want anything too formal, but i would want loads of people saying how great i was - i people to notice that i am no longer around, and be sad about it!

i want people to share good memories.

LayingLow

There sure seem to be a lot of threads on here about death lately.

I remember going to funeral talks that were all about the JW beliefs. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want that at this stage in the game. Maybe I will write a story about trying to conquer sin and death and getting whipped all the time. In the story I'll try really hard and then somewhere along my journey I'll get whipped too hard to continue. I'll collapse dead at that point and then Jesus will pick up my body and carry me into the Kingdom of Heaven. When I get there he will wake me up and then I'll be doing really well. After reading stories like Uncle Tom's Cabin I have a really good feeling about death despite its sadness. I think that telling a similar story will take off some of the grief the family might feel. My hope is that it really goes down like that. True stories are always the best.

Maybe if I can, I will add in the story that I probably wasn't expecting to die by ____ or else I would have avoided it and therefore they should be aware of their own mortality and try to live by the principal of love (That is one thing I feel strongly about) It's really late here. If this is rambling I apologize, good night.

7

Life after death

by Phil in

it is my understanding that a married couple will meet again after armageddon.

what happens when one or both remarry after the death of one or both or several marriages, don't we have a poligimous situation?

LayingLow

Was that understanding formed by reading certain scriptures, hoping, or listening to the speculations of a religious organization?

Some religious men asked Jesus a similar question in Mark chapter 12.

I really can't imagine what being like an angel would be like, can you? Maybe it's an experience better than anything we've ever known (and we still can be great friends with all of our previous spouses :)).

16

clapping and raising your hand

by megaflower in

LayingLow

I remember watching other people to see if they would clap...

It was a good way to test how much they were 'in the truth'. The more they clapped, well the more they must be believing it's the truth. I remember sitting by people who wouldn't clap and it really was getting me disturbed (Because I was afraid that in their mind they didn't think it was 'the truth'). Then came the day when I couldn't clap anymore, so I just didn't come back.