Posts by LayingLow

my jw mother thinks that all christians (non jws who call themselves christian) are all trinitarian.. i tried to point out that there are certain groups who are not trinitarian, but she seemed to think that all christian groups in babylon the great believe in the trinity.. is it true that only fringe groups reject the trinity?.

sorry for my ignorance but i don't know much about mainstream christianity.. i would like to email her (my mum) a list of religions which reject the trinity but are also christian.

i also heard of groups who believe and preach about jehovah as gods name.. sirona.

LayingLow

That's sort of the conclusion I was coming to when thinking about it as well.

Like in Babylon there was one kingship, one dynasty, that had control while Daniel was there. Actually, there was a king and his son who were ruling simultaneously. That is the overall gist that I keep getting from it. There is a godship and lordship that the Father and the Son operate together by means of the Holy Spirit. Paul used the word Lord so loosely in referring to both the Father and the Son.

Well, I guess that wasn't the point of this thread. But it seems to me that witnesses always want to say "Oh, none of them could be true because they believe in the trinity!" When in fact they are imagining modalism. This is probably a combined fault of the WTS for not reading more closely when they researched or deceptively setting up a straw-man, churches for not being clear enough in recognizing the distinctness of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and the individual witnesses for not taking the effort to research it (myself included). I used to rant against the trinity because I thought it was so absurd. Now I realize that it was the trinity in name, but modalism in concept that I was against.

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"If you are Christian you are definately Trinitarian"

by Sirona in

my jw mother thinks that all christians (non jws who call themselves christian) are all trinitarian.. i tried to point out that there are certain groups who are not trinitarian, but she seemed to think that all christian groups in babylon the great believe in the trinity.. is it true that only fringe groups reject the trinity?.

sorry for my ignorance but i don't know much about mainstream christianity.. i would like to email her (my mum) a list of religions which reject the trinity but are also christian.

i also heard of groups who believe and preach about jehovah as gods name.. sirona.

LayingLow

I remember thinking that most people who were in other churches were trinitarian. Then I found out what the trinity was and I realized that while most of them teach it in their creeds, many of the people have differing views on it.

I have heard explanations by various church goers that sound like modalism. (God putting on three masks or roles of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) Also, that God is tripartate. Neither of these are the trinity.

Others that I've talked to describe Jesus as someone who was created by God and sounds a lot like Arianism. So I don't think there is a consensus even within the churches.

However, most will affirm that Christ has the nature of God, even if they do not think that he exists in the same essence. Maybe a like essence. Like semi-arians.

2

Heavens Scent...still Jesus performs miracles...a comparison of WT's God...

by justhuman in

the story it can be found on the following link:.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/s/smellofrain.htm.

after leaving the wt i found that jesus is alive and still perfoming miracles.

LayingLow

You nailed quite a few points there. I remember waking up to the omnipresence of God. I had always imagined God as some person way out there in heaven (literally above us). Quite ineffectual and malevolent as they describe him. That was funny how you put the new light thing. Because everyone knows it is men that come up with the ideas, they always talk about how understanding changes. But if you view it as a revelation from God over the issue, it would seem that the God they are claiming to speak for is confused.

13

I NEED YOUR HELP !!

by thebigdebate in

here is my story:.

i was born and raised a jw.

i aux pioneered (60 hours) in the summers when school was out.

LayingLow

I can't help you so much with the historical aspects behind the 587/607 thing. But I think that looking at Luke 21:24 in context is quite telling. In vs. 20 it begins with Jerusalem being encamped by armies. The "anti-typical" fulfillment of this to a JW is the great tribulation breaking out. You may notice that in vs. 24 the trampling of Jerusalem (where the holy ones are or that which they constitute) ends when the gentile times ends.

So the gentile times end when the great tribulation ends. That means the gentile times expire in the future and not 94 years in the past. This used to fit the witness explanation since they believe they were in time of trouble (great tribulation) from around the late 1870's until 1914. They expected 1914 to end the gentile times and the great tribulation.

Then they changed their doctrine so that the great tribulation took place from 1914-1918 so this could potentially still make sense in chronological order. However, now that they have pegged the great tribulation as a future event, they are chronologically out of order.

In addition, you may ask her to summarize the events surrounding the gentile times expiring. Jerusalem gets trampled. Gentiles do the trampling. It ends after a set period of time.

Now look through the scriptures for set periods of time when Jerusalem gets trampled, gentiles do the tramping, and there is a set time. Here are some:

Dan 7:25- And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time.

Dan 12:7-And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Rev 11:1,2-And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and one said, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. And the court which is without the temple leave without, and measure it not; for it hath been given unto the nations: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

That same period is mentioned again in Rev 12 but I'm not sure if its the same events being described. Either way, if there is a gentile time that needs to be known, it appears to me that it would be the three and a half times from the above stated scriptures and not the 7 times which had a literal fulfillment in Nebuchadnezzar.

I hope this helps. Chronology seems very messy to me. Chronological order and accurate application seems a bit easier (or at least makes more sense to me).

13

You never know what may stroke a persons curiosity

by donny in

i learned today that one can never know what may make a dedicated jw think.

i have a man working for me who is a pretty devout jw.

he knows i used to attend meetings and occasionaly tries to "rescue" me and i always throw him a few reasons as to why i quit and he just shrugs it off.

LayingLow

What an odd thing for him to get hung up on. I suppose it mainly happened because the speaker had given him such a bad setup. I remember being a JW and being told that the sword was shown to men by God at the garden and that it was a divine instrument. I guess they don't have unity in everything.

7

when did the truth bcome the truth

by logic in

i was sitting here thinking, which seems to be an indangered thing to do nowadays.

it was about the last several discussions i have had with jws that i am related to and friends with.

the things that i noticed is that you can hold the discussion for about 10 minutes while they try to answer your questions then they get agitated and then angry, they refuse to talk anymore and tell you that they know it is the truth no matter what so called proof you have, and that is all just apostate talk.