one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.
it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.
christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.
John Mann:
What's the problem to a Christian if morality comes from directly from God's nature (as opposed from His will or intellect as you put as "divine command"). I don't see any dilemma in this.
The problem for Christians is that the Bible contains accounts of morally abhorrent actions claimed to have been commanded, sanctioned or performed by God, such as genocidal ethnic cleansing, killing children, etc.
one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.
it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.
christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.
As you alluded to, the Euthyphro Dilemma is pretty much all one needs to know to refute this typical Christian apologetic.
If morality is independent of God and exists outside of Him, then it means God is not all powerful and that He is subject to something greater than himself, ie, objective morality. No Christian can accept this proposition and still believe God is omnipotent.
However, if the source of all morality is from God and is not something outside and independent of God then objective morality does not exist, since it is only a reflection of Gods divine commands. It would mean morality is arbitrary and that might is right after all, as Satan claimed.
It's an intractable dilemma.
Some Christians have said the dilemma is false, claiming there is a third option. But it's not very convincing.
i was in a good mood yesterday (makes a bloody change, i hear you say).
i was meeting an old buddy for a meal.
he was never a jobo.
Its Johos not Jobos.
the sda's are also getting most of their growth in africa and latin america but plateauing or declining in europe and parts of the western world.. what's also interesting is the sda leadership fronts up and attempts to explain why there is decline in some areas of the world (albeit somewhat disingenously), eg, on the link below from 2014. but the watchtower leaders have never tried to give any explanation for why membership is dramatically falling away in the western world.
increasingly worried jws are instead turning to other sources of information to try and understand why the 'true religion' is contracting.. http://news.adventist.org/en/all-news/news/go/2013-10-13/membership-nears-18-million-secretary-highlights-regions-of-growth-decline/.
The SDA's are also getting most of their growth in Africa and Latin America but plateauing or declining in Europe and parts of the western world.
What's also interesting is the SDA leadership fronts up and attempts to explain why there is decline in some areas of the world (albeit somewhat disingenously), eg, on the link below from 2014. But the Watchtower leaders have never tried to give any explanation for why membership is dramatically falling away in the western world. Increasingly worried JWs are instead turning to other sources of information to try and understand why the 'true religion' is contracting.
report was in nz news paper recently this guy had a camera attached to his witnessing bag so he could film up girls skirts hyperthetical can you imagine before he was caught this bro being commended for his zeal in the ministry and used as a role model for reporting a lot of hours which is considered by the elders a measure of ones spirituality .
He was actually an elder.
regarding what happened post russell in 1917, if you ask a jw, they'll say it was the fault of the ousted board members who were 'self willed'.
if you ask an ex-jw, they'll say it was a 'power grab' by rutherford.
the latest yearbook elaborates on the situation:.
Great post krismalone, thanks.
i just saw this posted on a facebook group.
anyone know if there is any truth to this?.
http://www.exjehovahswitness.com/gb-discontinues-new-world-translation-as-old-light.html.
It's a piss-take.
we can draw a parallel: the democrats lost the us presidential election, and they started blaming everyone else (including foreign powers) except themselves.
they forgot the reason for their own victory before—it was the direct and proportionate result of the poor performance of the then ruling party.
and now after 8 years of mess, people voted for a change.
Umm..OK.
The fundamental error of the organization, like all religious organizations, is that they take their given 'holy book' literally.
hi i am posting for the first time although i've been looking for a few years , i was born into a witness family left when i was 12 with my parents went back at 22 pioneered became ms started to have major doubts around 2002 when there was a lot of talk about blood fractions etc have been hit and miss since i'm extremely mentally confused as to wether or not this really is jehovah's earthly organisation , i find life hard facing up to mortality etc not having the new system hope , what nailed your decision to leave ?
how did you cope with world problems on news etc ?
how did you fill the void ?
Congratulations on having awakened from your lifelong brainwashing since birth and welcome to reality and the human race.
You are strong and courageous to be where you are right now in your journey away from religious brainwashing and indoctrination.
Be kind to yourself and stay grounded in reality.
i have often seen many categorise the organisation in different ways.
some say cult, some say high control religion.
cult or high control religion?.
Thread number 3679 on whether JWs are a cult.
Cults are by definition high control.
